A mental deviate is a mental deviate who needs clinical help. Pandering to their twisted outlook only causes further damage.
To many do not accurately describe what is actually so.
The old saying "call a spade a spade" holds true. Unless you identify what is wrong you will never correct it
RolaineJune 23, 2015
In the ultra-left political stance or leaning of the common or popular narrative there is one set of truisms.
In the Book of Enoch and reflected in LDS scriptures there is listed the man dressing as women and women as men as a no-no. Will there be the devil to pay, so to speak, if we religious scripture influenced people do not agree with the political left?
I am reminded of the War in Heaven and the plan of Satan to force all to be saved. We voted then for free agency and see where that is devolving?
JaredJune 23, 2015
Agency works best when options are known. I think the article provides hope that, despite real feelings one experiences, the media's way is not the only option and that people with such challenges (or any challenge really) can and do live within His light and find great joy and peace in doing so. There are always alternatives to the alternative and the Lord can and will guide as we seek Him. To me, living the commandments despite any weakness is the mark of true courage. My issue with the story when it broke was not with Jenner but with the message being sent that his choice was the courageous one and the one that should be applauded. No mention of the alternative or the "rest of the story." I applaud all those that battle this or any other "thorn" yet remain true and faithful. Thank you all for your examples. Yours is one of true courage to me.
ConcernedJune 23, 2015
I think the article is excellent in that it perhaps offers hope and a desired alternative to what the media pushes as heroic. Agency works best when there are options and these options need to be known. Information should be available. My issue with the media's approach is that it shuts down even the discussion that there are many people who battle and live righteously within the bounds the Lord has set and have found great peace and joy in doing so. I find nothing more courageous than the person who lives in the light despite the challenges they face, whatever they may be. And I definitely agree, we are to love as Christ would love.
Jeff DrakeJune 23, 2015
Brad, I think you’re misunderstanding my point. I never said the article was ultraconservative; I said that ultraconservatives take a certain position. I do, however, still feel that the article is absolute. I see nothing in this article that allows for the possibility of justifiable transition. ¶
Mark, I appreciate your position, and it is a very popular one, but it’s unfortunately not supported by the document you cite. *The Family: A Proclamation to the World* states that “Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.” However, said proclamation does NOT state that gender cannot change (Doctrine & Covenants 19 makes it abundantly clear that just because something is “eternal” doesn’t mean it is immutable), nor does it state birth defects cannot cause a person of one gender to appear to be another gender. We need to be very careful when we introduce our own assumptions into God’s word. ¶
Finally, I’m not sure if you were addressing me, but I never claimed that anyone was being “fearful, hysterical, or hateful.” I merely said the author was being absolutist, and I’m not sure how one could argue otherwise. If you feel differently, please feel free to share your reasoning. ¶
Thanks!
Katherine CarpenterJune 23, 2015
I appreciate Jeff's Drake's commentary. Gender identify issues are very complex and deserve thoughtful exploration from reliable sources rather than midguided popular media or outdated myths. Research on the topic of 'intersex' / gender abiguity at birth is helpful. Gender identity is more than physiological or emotional/mental issues. Gonads, chromosomes, body maturation, are just some topics involved in determination of gender. As with every other aspect of our mortal bodies what we consider as typical can present in a variety of differences or deviations from normal. Therefore as we are all out of Eden's Garden our errand from the Lord is to love each other following His example untill we see through the glass a little more clearly..
JohnJune 23, 2015
Basically I agree with the article, but feel the need to mention the situation (albeit rare) where one is born with xx/xy chromosomes, I.e., hermaphroditism. I think in this situation, one might have legitimate doubts about ones gender.
Judy PerryJune 23, 2015
Gentle, Jim Kinsey, gentle. It is the adamant black and white thinking about LGBT issues that causes the most hurt and damage both in the church and out. There is still so much that is not understood. We need to be more loving and patient with all people. We have not walked in their moccasins nor do we reside in their skin
Mark MitchellJune 23, 2015
MomofFtM, I know it's a sensitive subject, but "Stop spreading fear and hatred". Really? The point of this article isn't that trans people are evil, it's that the media doesn't give a balanced representation of the issues. There's nothing evil about having cancer, or feeling that your legs don't belong on your body (which is a real thing, apparently), but that doesn't mean that we should accept those conditions as normal and not treat them. The article merely states that surgery and hormone therapy is not helpful to these folks in the long run.
And Jeff, while we don't have a doctrinal explanation for what causes people to have these gender confusions and are evolving policies on how to deal with such situations, there's no shortage of doctrine about the importance of gender and sexuality in the eternal scheme of things. In fact, "Mormonism" is unique as far as I can tell in the doctrine that sexuality (i.e. heterosexualtiy) is a fundamental key to the highest reward in the next life. The Proclamation on the Family states that gender identity is eternal (pre-mortal and post-mortal). That's far from "absolutely no doctrine on this subject".
Because someone may disagree with your beliefs does not automatically mean they are fearful, hysterical or hateful. I disagree about funamental things with many people in my day-to-day life who I'm happy to interact with and socialize with and work with as equals. We share our lives and space on the planet together and it's wonderful to have diversity. But the 'whatever-phobia' label is facile and insulting.
cbJune 23, 2015
Having read the article and previous comments, I am thankful to have had this article published and been able to link to the other articles sited or recommended. The issues we face in this world may never be fully understood but I prayerfully seek answers in my life as I follow our living prophet and apostles and also hope to improve my love for my fellow friends and family members on planet earth who face these sorts of feelings and the resulting decisions (as well as any other sorts of problems I can't understand). May we all be blessed in our striving to be the kind of people our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ would have us be.
BradJune 23, 2015
I think the first two posters missed the point completely. First of all, I found no where in the article where it was expressed or implied that this was a sin. Disobedience to a commandment was not in the intent of this article at all. As far as this article being "ultraconservative" and too "absolute," I completely disagree. Disseminating facts these days are conveniently labeled as "ultraconservative." There is so much about this issue that the main stream media does not want you to know. Here it is in this article. This article also is not guilty of "spreading fear and hatred." It is informative. As it pointed out, suicide rates among transgenders who did surgery is 20 times the norm! What the media does not tell you is that there is deep regret with most after having gone through transformation. It doesn't solve a thing. Now we have people, though, who will think it is the "brave" and "courageous" thing to do. It is a mistake and this coverage is perpetuating the mistake.
The media coverage of Bruce Jenner and applying labels such as "brave" and "courageous" has done great damage. Satan is highly active today in redefining everything, busily redefining bad as good, abnormal as normal. And people, including Latter-day Saints, have been brainwashed by all this PC gobbledy-gook. I really like this quote from David Coolidge:
"It's one thing to be compassionate toward people who are exceptions to the norm. It's another thing to redefine the norm." (David O. Coolidge, https://articles.latimes.com/2000/feb/28/local/me-3509)
Jeff DrakeJune 23, 2015
While this article is definitely informative, I think it falls into the same category as most treatments of gender dysphoria: far too absolute. On the one hand, we have the ultraliberal crowd clamoring for every gender dysphoric individual to transition; on the other, we have the ultraconservative crowd clamoring for each of them not to. As usual, the reality is really somewhere in the middle.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints currently has no position on gender dysphoria, a fact reiterated by Elder Dallin H. Oaks when he stated that “being acquainted with the unique problems of a transgender situation is something we have not had experience with, and we have some unfinished business in teaching on that” (interview, January 29). In fact, while the Church Handbook of Instructions states that “elective transsexual operations … *may* be cause for church discipline” (CHI 1:6.7.2, emphasis mine), there are documented cases of Church members who remained in good standing following such surgeries. (One such case is mentioned in Maxine Hanks’ “ Sister Missionaries and Authority”, available online at https://signaturebookslibrary.org/women-and-authority-14.) The fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no doctrine on this subject, and as Latter-day Saints, we shouldn’t be teaching our own speculations as doctrine.
Now, does all this mean that Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is really a woman? Of course not. I have no authority to receive revelation for her—nor do I ever expect to—so that’s not my place to decide. Does it mean that most transgender people have an eternal gender that correspond to their self-perceived gender? Again, it does not. I suspect that the great majority don’t, but as with Jenner’s situation, I’m far from authorized to speculate on the situation of any particular individual. But what it does mean is that this article, while helpful, is certainly not indicative of every transgender situation. There are many faithful, transgender Latter-day Saints who remain in full fellowship with the support of their priesthood leaders, including the First Presidency and the Twelve. To indicate that every one is sinning based on nothing more than personal supposition is a very dangerous claim.
Finally, if you or someone you know suffers from gender dysphoria, I would highly recommend North Star (https://northstarlds.org/gender-identity). It’s a group of faithful Latter-day Saints with same-sex attraction or gender identity issues, and for friends and family of the same. Until and unless the Church says otherwise, I support our transgender brothers and sisters as they do their best to make their way back to our Heavenly Parents, and I would hope that we all would do the same.
MomofFtMJune 23, 2015
The American Psychiatric Association disagrees with your assertions and finds Dr. McHugh's research inaccurate.
https://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Advocacy%20and%20Newsroom/Press%20Releases/2012%20Releases/12-36-APA-Position-Statements-on-Transgender.pdf
Stop worrying about this. Stop spreading fear and hatred. Many good LDS people experience gender dysphoria, live within worthy boundaries, and you are hurting them. They love the gospel with all their hearts.
Would you ask a heart patient not to seek medical help? Would you ask someone with a broken bone to just wait until the resurrection? Would you ask someone with severe depression to just "buck up" and just make themselves happy? You are way off track here and are hurting real people over your self ascribed "principles of righteousness." Get over yourself. Love people as the Savior loves. Get to know someone who was born with this birth defect. Serve them. See if your heart is changed. I promise that it will.
Jim KinseyJune 23, 2015
Sick! Sick! Sick! in every sense of the word. No amount of cutting, dressing, or other affectation will ever change the gender of anyone. It is not to be thought of as an alternative life style or an acceptable philosophy. Satan does not care what we believe as long as we don't believe in Jesus Christ and his doctrine. I for one cannot accept it nor condone it.
Michael ChopinJune 23, 2015
Edgar Leslie tune of 1925:
Masculine Women, Feminine Men,
which is the rooster which is the hen?
It’s hard to tell ’em apart today.
And SAY…
Sister is busy learning to shave,
Brother just loves his permanent wave,
It’s hard to tell ’em apart today.
HEY! HEY!
Girls were girls and boys were boys when I was a tot,
Now we don’t know who is who or even what’s what.
Knickers and trousers, baggy and wide,
Nobody knows who’s walking inside.
Those Masculine Women, Feminine Men
Masculine Women. Feminine Men
which is the rooster which is the hen?
It’s hard to tell ’em apart today.
And SAY…
Auntie is smoking, rolling her own,
Uncle is always buying cologne.
It’s hard to tell ’em apart today.
HEY! HEY!
You go and give your girl a kiss in the hall,
But instead you find you’re kissing her brother Paul.
Mama’s got a sweater up to her chin,
Papa’s got a girdle holding him in.
Those Masculine Women, Feminine Men
A few years later, the markets crashed in the U.S. and soon after Hitler seized power in Germany. So I guess this proves when man loses his ability to reason, the world falls apart. Neither could they buy a loaf of bread with a wheel barrow full of money.
Comments | Return to Story
Junk BinJune 24, 2015
A mental deviate is a mental deviate who needs clinical help. Pandering to their twisted outlook only causes further damage. To many do not accurately describe what is actually so. The old saying "call a spade a spade" holds true. Unless you identify what is wrong you will never correct it
RolaineJune 23, 2015
In the ultra-left political stance or leaning of the common or popular narrative there is one set of truisms. In the Book of Enoch and reflected in LDS scriptures there is listed the man dressing as women and women as men as a no-no. Will there be the devil to pay, so to speak, if we religious scripture influenced people do not agree with the political left? I am reminded of the War in Heaven and the plan of Satan to force all to be saved. We voted then for free agency and see where that is devolving?
JaredJune 23, 2015
Agency works best when options are known. I think the article provides hope that, despite real feelings one experiences, the media's way is not the only option and that people with such challenges (or any challenge really) can and do live within His light and find great joy and peace in doing so. There are always alternatives to the alternative and the Lord can and will guide as we seek Him. To me, living the commandments despite any weakness is the mark of true courage. My issue with the story when it broke was not with Jenner but with the message being sent that his choice was the courageous one and the one that should be applauded. No mention of the alternative or the "rest of the story." I applaud all those that battle this or any other "thorn" yet remain true and faithful. Thank you all for your examples. Yours is one of true courage to me.
ConcernedJune 23, 2015
I think the article is excellent in that it perhaps offers hope and a desired alternative to what the media pushes as heroic. Agency works best when there are options and these options need to be known. Information should be available. My issue with the media's approach is that it shuts down even the discussion that there are many people who battle and live righteously within the bounds the Lord has set and have found great peace and joy in doing so. I find nothing more courageous than the person who lives in the light despite the challenges they face, whatever they may be. And I definitely agree, we are to love as Christ would love.
Jeff DrakeJune 23, 2015
Brad, I think you’re misunderstanding my point. I never said the article was ultraconservative; I said that ultraconservatives take a certain position. I do, however, still feel that the article is absolute. I see nothing in this article that allows for the possibility of justifiable transition. ¶ Mark, I appreciate your position, and it is a very popular one, but it’s unfortunately not supported by the document you cite. *The Family: A Proclamation to the World* states that “Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.” However, said proclamation does NOT state that gender cannot change (Doctrine & Covenants 19 makes it abundantly clear that just because something is “eternal” doesn’t mean it is immutable), nor does it state birth defects cannot cause a person of one gender to appear to be another gender. We need to be very careful when we introduce our own assumptions into God’s word. ¶ Finally, I’m not sure if you were addressing me, but I never claimed that anyone was being “fearful, hysterical, or hateful.” I merely said the author was being absolutist, and I’m not sure how one could argue otherwise. If you feel differently, please feel free to share your reasoning. ¶ Thanks!
Katherine CarpenterJune 23, 2015
I appreciate Jeff's Drake's commentary. Gender identify issues are very complex and deserve thoughtful exploration from reliable sources rather than midguided popular media or outdated myths. Research on the topic of 'intersex' / gender abiguity at birth is helpful. Gender identity is more than physiological or emotional/mental issues. Gonads, chromosomes, body maturation, are just some topics involved in determination of gender. As with every other aspect of our mortal bodies what we consider as typical can present in a variety of differences or deviations from normal. Therefore as we are all out of Eden's Garden our errand from the Lord is to love each other following His example untill we see through the glass a little more clearly..
JohnJune 23, 2015
Basically I agree with the article, but feel the need to mention the situation (albeit rare) where one is born with xx/xy chromosomes, I.e., hermaphroditism. I think in this situation, one might have legitimate doubts about ones gender.
Judy PerryJune 23, 2015
Gentle, Jim Kinsey, gentle. It is the adamant black and white thinking about LGBT issues that causes the most hurt and damage both in the church and out. There is still so much that is not understood. We need to be more loving and patient with all people. We have not walked in their moccasins nor do we reside in their skin
Mark MitchellJune 23, 2015
MomofFtM, I know it's a sensitive subject, but "Stop spreading fear and hatred". Really? The point of this article isn't that trans people are evil, it's that the media doesn't give a balanced representation of the issues. There's nothing evil about having cancer, or feeling that your legs don't belong on your body (which is a real thing, apparently), but that doesn't mean that we should accept those conditions as normal and not treat them. The article merely states that surgery and hormone therapy is not helpful to these folks in the long run. And Jeff, while we don't have a doctrinal explanation for what causes people to have these gender confusions and are evolving policies on how to deal with such situations, there's no shortage of doctrine about the importance of gender and sexuality in the eternal scheme of things. In fact, "Mormonism" is unique as far as I can tell in the doctrine that sexuality (i.e. heterosexualtiy) is a fundamental key to the highest reward in the next life. The Proclamation on the Family states that gender identity is eternal (pre-mortal and post-mortal). That's far from "absolutely no doctrine on this subject". Because someone may disagree with your beliefs does not automatically mean they are fearful, hysterical or hateful. I disagree about funamental things with many people in my day-to-day life who I'm happy to interact with and socialize with and work with as equals. We share our lives and space on the planet together and it's wonderful to have diversity. But the 'whatever-phobia' label is facile and insulting.
cbJune 23, 2015
Having read the article and previous comments, I am thankful to have had this article published and been able to link to the other articles sited or recommended. The issues we face in this world may never be fully understood but I prayerfully seek answers in my life as I follow our living prophet and apostles and also hope to improve my love for my fellow friends and family members on planet earth who face these sorts of feelings and the resulting decisions (as well as any other sorts of problems I can't understand). May we all be blessed in our striving to be the kind of people our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ would have us be.
BradJune 23, 2015
I think the first two posters missed the point completely. First of all, I found no where in the article where it was expressed or implied that this was a sin. Disobedience to a commandment was not in the intent of this article at all. As far as this article being "ultraconservative" and too "absolute," I completely disagree. Disseminating facts these days are conveniently labeled as "ultraconservative." There is so much about this issue that the main stream media does not want you to know. Here it is in this article. This article also is not guilty of "spreading fear and hatred." It is informative. As it pointed out, suicide rates among transgenders who did surgery is 20 times the norm! What the media does not tell you is that there is deep regret with most after having gone through transformation. It doesn't solve a thing. Now we have people, though, who will think it is the "brave" and "courageous" thing to do. It is a mistake and this coverage is perpetuating the mistake. The media coverage of Bruce Jenner and applying labels such as "brave" and "courageous" has done great damage. Satan is highly active today in redefining everything, busily redefining bad as good, abnormal as normal. And people, including Latter-day Saints, have been brainwashed by all this PC gobbledy-gook. I really like this quote from David Coolidge: "It's one thing to be compassionate toward people who are exceptions to the norm. It's another thing to redefine the norm." (David O. Coolidge, https://articles.latimes.com/2000/feb/28/local/me-3509)
Jeff DrakeJune 23, 2015
While this article is definitely informative, I think it falls into the same category as most treatments of gender dysphoria: far too absolute. On the one hand, we have the ultraliberal crowd clamoring for every gender dysphoric individual to transition; on the other, we have the ultraconservative crowd clamoring for each of them not to. As usual, the reality is really somewhere in the middle. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints currently has no position on gender dysphoria, a fact reiterated by Elder Dallin H. Oaks when he stated that “being acquainted with the unique problems of a transgender situation is something we have not had experience with, and we have some unfinished business in teaching on that” (interview, January 29). In fact, while the Church Handbook of Instructions states that “elective transsexual operations … *may* be cause for church discipline” (CHI 1:6.7.2, emphasis mine), there are documented cases of Church members who remained in good standing following such surgeries. (One such case is mentioned in Maxine Hanks’ “ Sister Missionaries and Authority”, available online at https://signaturebookslibrary.org/women-and-authority-14.) The fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no doctrine on this subject, and as Latter-day Saints, we shouldn’t be teaching our own speculations as doctrine. Now, does all this mean that Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is really a woman? Of course not. I have no authority to receive revelation for her—nor do I ever expect to—so that’s not my place to decide. Does it mean that most transgender people have an eternal gender that correspond to their self-perceived gender? Again, it does not. I suspect that the great majority don’t, but as with Jenner’s situation, I’m far from authorized to speculate on the situation of any particular individual. But what it does mean is that this article, while helpful, is certainly not indicative of every transgender situation. There are many faithful, transgender Latter-day Saints who remain in full fellowship with the support of their priesthood leaders, including the First Presidency and the Twelve. To indicate that every one is sinning based on nothing more than personal supposition is a very dangerous claim. Finally, if you or someone you know suffers from gender dysphoria, I would highly recommend North Star (https://northstarlds.org/gender-identity). It’s a group of faithful Latter-day Saints with same-sex attraction or gender identity issues, and for friends and family of the same. Until and unless the Church says otherwise, I support our transgender brothers and sisters as they do their best to make their way back to our Heavenly Parents, and I would hope that we all would do the same.
MomofFtMJune 23, 2015
The American Psychiatric Association disagrees with your assertions and finds Dr. McHugh's research inaccurate. https://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Advocacy%20and%20Newsroom/Press%20Releases/2012%20Releases/12-36-APA-Position-Statements-on-Transgender.pdf Stop worrying about this. Stop spreading fear and hatred. Many good LDS people experience gender dysphoria, live within worthy boundaries, and you are hurting them. They love the gospel with all their hearts. Would you ask a heart patient not to seek medical help? Would you ask someone with a broken bone to just wait until the resurrection? Would you ask someone with severe depression to just "buck up" and just make themselves happy? You are way off track here and are hurting real people over your self ascribed "principles of righteousness." Get over yourself. Love people as the Savior loves. Get to know someone who was born with this birth defect. Serve them. See if your heart is changed. I promise that it will.
Jim KinseyJune 23, 2015
Sick! Sick! Sick! in every sense of the word. No amount of cutting, dressing, or other affectation will ever change the gender of anyone. It is not to be thought of as an alternative life style or an acceptable philosophy. Satan does not care what we believe as long as we don't believe in Jesus Christ and his doctrine. I for one cannot accept it nor condone it.
Michael ChopinJune 23, 2015
Edgar Leslie tune of 1925: Masculine Women, Feminine Men, which is the rooster which is the hen? It’s hard to tell ’em apart today. And SAY… Sister is busy learning to shave, Brother just loves his permanent wave, It’s hard to tell ’em apart today. HEY! HEY! Girls were girls and boys were boys when I was a tot, Now we don’t know who is who or even what’s what. Knickers and trousers, baggy and wide, Nobody knows who’s walking inside. Those Masculine Women, Feminine Men Masculine Women. Feminine Men which is the rooster which is the hen? It’s hard to tell ’em apart today. And SAY… Auntie is smoking, rolling her own, Uncle is always buying cologne. It’s hard to tell ’em apart today. HEY! HEY! You go and give your girl a kiss in the hall, But instead you find you’re kissing her brother Paul. Mama’s got a sweater up to her chin, Papa’s got a girdle holding him in. Those Masculine Women, Feminine Men A few years later, the markets crashed in the U.S. and soon after Hitler seized power in Germany. So I guess this proves when man loses his ability to reason, the world falls apart. Neither could they buy a loaf of bread with a wheel barrow full of money.
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