Scot
Welcome to Meridian Magazine‘s Come Follow Me podcast. We’re Scot and Maurine Proctor, and we’re thrilled to be with you again this week as we discuss Exodus chapters 19-20, 24, and 31-34, a very important and wonderful part of the Old Testament.
Now, as you’ve been seeing, we have some special guests that we have invited to be with us in these podcasts, and we welcome another one this week that we think you’ll be very excited to have join us.
Maurine
Kerry Muhlestein is one of our favorites, because we love his books so much. He’s written many, but we have favorites. We love, Let God Prevail, which is all about the covenant in the Old Testament and, of course, his prolific work on the Book of Abraham. He is an Egyptologist, a professor at BYU, but most of all, we are impressed with his passion to make what people consider the hard things of the Old Testament easier. So, welcome, Kerry. We’re so glad you’re with us.
Scot
Now, Kerry, I have a question for you. The Lord says an interesting thing in the first part of chapter 19. He says you’ve seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bear you on eagle’s wings and brought you unto myself. Do you have any thoughts about this bear you on eagle’s wings, because Isaiah uses that same kind of language later, and I just, I love that concept.
Kerry
I love the phrase, and it does seem like Isaiah is intentionally borrowing from it here and they’re both just drawing on imagery that is fantastic. So, the Lord is saying, look what I’ve done to the Egyptians, and he has specifically set up things, I believe, in terms of the plagues, and the deliverance from Egypt to demonstrate to Israel, Egypt, and all the world, that He, was the one who was really God, not Pharaoh, not Pharaoh’s god, not anyone else. God is God, and he’s the deliverer.
He’s the one with power and that message seems to have been received loud and clearer by the Israelites, although they will forget from time to time. So he’s reminding them of that, and he’s going to remind them frequently because they do forget. But he also wants to do it in a way that they understand, because of this covenant relationship that they have, that the way he has taken care of them, he will continue to take care of them. So this phrase is beautiful, but what more could you want than if you’re going to go across this terrible desert, then to be carried on eagles’ wings? Right? It’s just a beautiful phrase.
This notion, the idea of the deliverance, will become the thing that God and his prophets remind Israel of again and again and again. Whenever they doubt, whenever they’re wondering, whenever they’re kind of wavering, He says, remember how I delivered you in Egypt, and it becomes the symbol of deliverance par excellence.
Maurine
Then I think it’s really interesting that He says, very specifically, what He wants to do with Israel. He wants to make a covenant with them and make them to be a peculiar treasure. So, this God of high expectations, also, is a God who has the power to make us new people. What is he about here? And what is the Lord thinking that he can accomplish through this covenant in this instance?
Kerry
That’s a great question. I talked quite a bit about this in my book, Let God Prevail, but the idea is that really the purpose of the covenant is to help us become transformed, as you said, to become the kind of people that are capable of a closer relationship with God. The ultimate expression of that will be for us to become Christlike or godly, so that we can have a full communion with him.
But, of course, there will be steps along the way; we don’t become Christ like overnight. That’s really the purpose of the covenant is to change us, to give us access to the transformative power of Christ’s atoning sacrifice so that we can be changed.
As we even start into that, just initially, when we enter into the covenant with it, and that could be Israel, at Mount Sinai, or us, at the baptismal font, immediately, there are changes that come, and that will make us, as you said, that the phrase is in verse 5, you then you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people, for all the earth is mine.
Now this Hebrew word segulah, here means that it’s something that is valuable because it’s rare. So that’s why we put the peculiar in the treasure in there. In terms of commodities, that’s what determines something’s worth: the more rare it is, the more value it has, right?
That’s what God is trying to say, really, is that he wants us to be different than everyone else. We’re not supposed to be the same as the world, and yet we have this desire to fit in. We have this desire to be like everyone else. It’s kind of fun watching teenagers, because they both want to be individual and unique, and be like everybody else at the same time.
I say it about teenagers, but it turns out to be true of all of us in many ways, and God is telling us, no, don’t be worldly. Don’t be like the world. I want you to be like me. I want you to be godly. That’s going to happen in two ways. One. I’m giving you a set of ways to act, a set of commandments. That’s the primary obligation under the laws, to keep the commandments, first commandment, and love God, and so on. So that’s the way that we need to act, but the covenant itself gives us access to the transformative power of Christ that will change who we are. So both of those things come together, to change who we are, and thus we are more godly, less worldly, which makes us a peculiar treasure different than everyone else, and more godly, so that we become so precious in God’s sight, because the relationship is heightened, and in some ways, that sums up what the covenant is all about in a nutshell, this idea that we become a peculiar treasure to God.
Scot
Now, Kerry, we’ve all been to the Sinai a number of times, and I’m sure have hiked the mount, the traditional mount Sinai. Why would God bring his people into such difficult circumstances, and then have them camp before this mountain? Then Moses goes up, and there’s all of this fire and smoke, and Moses is meeting with God face to face, as one friend meets with another. What is this for us now, that we come to this mountain? Is this the temple? What’s going on here? Tell us more, and bring us to Sinai, because you’ve been there many times.
Kerry
I think so, and I don’t know. I think there’s a decent chance that the traditional site is the right spot, but if not, it’s got to be something somewhat similar, right? I think it’s absolutely a temple setting. The symbolism is the same.
In fact, the temples are really recreations of holy mountains. Typologically, the temple is a holy mountain. Maybe instead of us saying that Mount Sinai is a temple, we can say temples are Mount Sinai, but what it is, is it brings Israel away from the world, away from everything else. I think it’s intentional, that it’s not an easy path. It’s not a place where they can survive on their own. They have to rely on God to survive here. That’s part of the purpose because in the end, if we’re going to be exalted, well have to rely on God. It’s not terrain we can traverse on our own. It’s not a journey we can survive on our own. And so what’s happening, physically, literally, is also a symbolic journey, and that’s the beauty of the Old Testament is that there are so many things that happen literally, but they’re always symbolic, and sometimes I don’t know if it’s literal or not, but it’s always symbolic.
They’re being brought out of the world, learning to rely only on God, so that they can come to this place where the symbolism of temples, steeples, mountains, altars all of this, is that if the world is the flat thing down below and heaven is up above, then it’s something that will connect you. A mountain connects you with heaven, a steeple does an altar does. It’s that symbolic connection with God.
They come to this mountain that can raise them up closer to being with God, and God wants to come down. That’s the fantastic symbolism. For example, in Egyptian temples, as you get further and further in the temple and closer and closer to the holiest space, you keep ascending up, but the ceiling keeps coming down. By the time you get to the holy place where the statue of the God was, there’s not a lot of room between the floor and the ceiling. You’ve come towards God. He’s come down to you.
That’s what’s happening at Mount Sinai, is that Israel has come up, relying on God through the wilderness, out of the world, and God is going to come down to Sinai, and He wants for everyone to see Him. His goal is for everyone in Israel to come to see Him and be in his presence face to face. That’s what he wants and that’s what he promises He can make happen, that they can see him.
To begin with, to come into his presence, they have to prepare. Right? They are told to wash themselves. They set a boundary so they don’t come into the sacred place before they’re ready. They do all these things to try and prepare themselves.
In the meantime, they can see that God is preparing himself to come down. There’s light and thunder and all sorts of stuff up on the mountain. They’re all getting ready for this actual meeting, but then they don’t go through with. The sad tragedy of the Sinai experience is that Israel has this opportunity, and then they choose not to do it.
Maurine
The idea of the peculiar people is really part of the covenant notion, but it is difficult for some people to hear that in a world we live in that talks about equality for all, and should there be some who have a closer relationship with God? You want to discuss that a little bit?
Kerry
That’s really worth thinking about because really, it is equality. Remember that part of the obligation of the covenant is to carry the covenant to everyone else? You don’t get that in the Old Testament. You have to read the book of Abraham to get that aspect of it. I think that Satan was successful in getting it taken out. But that’s part of the covenant that we share with everyone. Part of the purpose of the House of Israel, is that we need to take the covenant to the entire world.
President Nelson has been fairly emphatic about that and it’s not just to the entire world on this side of the veil. It’s to everyone who’s ever been on the world on either side of the veil, right? Everyone is not only invited, but encouraged, begged, and pled with to be part of this covenant. God wants to have a closer relationship with all of his children. You have to self select it out of it.
Anyone can be part of the House of Israel. Now, it doesn’t turn out that way practically in this story because sometimes the Israelites forgot that that’s how it was supposed to happen. They became fairly elitist at times and non-inclusive. They lost sight of that, but what it’s supposed to be is that everyone can be part of the covenant. You only aren’t, if you choose not to be, because we’re trying to get you to be.
I think that’s worth thinking about, that God wants, first of all, to have all of Israel come into His presence and then He’s going to send them out to get everybody else to join the covenant and come into His presence. He’s delegating. He’s going to have Moses send out some people, and then they’ll send out other people, and they’ll send out other people, the way Christ does with His apostles. They send out people, (they are the 70) and they get sent forth, and we’re seeing the same thing happening today. In the end, everyone is invited to come. The question is whether you will come or not.
In this story, even Israel chose to not fully come. They hear this lightning and the thunder, and sometimes we miss this because you have to read this version in Deuteronomy chapter 5, but it becomes clear that they all hear God giving the Ten Commandments. This isn’t just Moses. Everyone hears God’s voice.
They know who’s up there; they know what’s going on. God teaches them to get ready for this, but at the end, we see in Exodus chapter 20, verse 19, well, let’s go to verse 18 first, “And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking, and when the people saw it, they removed and stood afar off.”
It’s overwhelming to them. This is scary, too. And they said to Moses, “Speak with us, and we will hear, but let not God speak with us, lest we die.” You see their fear, and to me, there’s something really profound and instructive about this. Their fear is that they can’t come into God’s presence and survive. Now, that’s a reasonable fear, because if God doesn’t change your nature, that ends up being true. You can’t survive God’s presence in your fallen, sinful state. It just isn’t going to happen.
But God has told them that he will bring them into his presence. So what you have to do is believe that God has the ability and the desire to change you, to transform you, so you can come to His presence, and then step forward in faith, knowing that as you start to step forward, you’re not worthy, but believing that as you finish that step, God will change you and save you. Israel is too full of fear and not full of faith enough to make the step, to make the change or to trust that God will change them.
They say instead, Moses, you go talk with God, we’ll stay back here, you be the intermediary. Joseph Smith teaches us that this is the reason that they get the lower law. I think that the golden calf has something to do with it, but this is the primary reason that they get the lower law, because they refused to come to God’s presence when God invited them to come.
I think it has to do with this lack of trust in the transforming power of Christ, and his atoning sacrifice, which is something that we still struggle with mightily today in modern Israel. We see our own flaws, we see how good everyone else is. We see how good God is, and whatever else. We believe that God can save other people, but when we look at our own shortcomings, our own lack of perfection, then we start to struggle to believe that He can save us and change us and bring us into His presence, which means that we’re not different than our Israelite ancestors. We have the same struggles and the same answer is to trust when he says to them, “Fear not,” which is what he says to them here. Fear not. We just have to reject our fear, give into our faith, and take that step and fall on God.
Scot
You know, as you’re talking, Kerry, it reminds me of the whole setting in the premortal world when there’s this grand council, and God is really trying to see if they will do all things whatsoever he commands them. And he’s going to give them these commandments, which Moses comes down with.
Maurine
Why do you think it’s so hard for us to trust the Lord? Why is that such a difficult journey? Fear and trust seem to be pulling us in both directions simultaneously. We want to trust the Lord, but sometimes that’s difficult.
Kerry
I agree, and I can’t profess to understand all the reasons different people struggle with it, but I think that there are a couple things that are fundamental that we all struggle with. One of them is that we’re very aware of our own shortcomings, right? I know my own faults better than anybody, and I know that not only is it sometimes because I didn’t do as well as I should have, but it’s sometimes because I didn’t want to do well at that moment, right? We know our motives better than anyone else does.
Knowing that, it’s hard to believe that a perfect being would say, it’s okay. I’ve got you covered on that, right? There’s a tone there that means to cover. That’s what he’s saying is, I’ve got you covered.
It’s hard to also hard to believe that someone has the ability to change us when sometimes we’re not working as hard. No one is working as hard as they should at changing themselves, right? Nobody at all. And since we know that about ourselves sometimes, then it’s hard to believe that someone else can and would change us. But that’s what we have to do.
We have to believe it, and that’s part of why God is going to keep reminding them of the Exodus story to say, do you remember when it seemed absolutely impossible that you could come out of Egypt? And do you remember when the largest, most powerful army in the world was coming down on you and it seemed like it was impossible to escape? Then do you remember that I delivered you in ways that you could have never imagined and that seemed impossible? If I could do that, if I could split the Red Sea, breathe fire down to stop the Egyptian army, and bring you through on dry ground, I can change your little old self.
One of the things I like to tell my students is, you’re not a match for the atonement. You may feel like your sins are going to overpower the atonement, but, they’re not. You’re not good enough at sinning to be more powerful than the atonement is. Or I should say than the atoning sacrifice of Christ is, Christ really, really can change us. Sometimes it’s hard to feel, and sometimes it’s hard to believe, but we just have to look at the history as salvation history, we could call it. The history of Him saving, and then we can believe that if He can do that, He can change me.
Scot
I’m thinking about this first commandment that the Lord gives, of the ten. I mean, there’s many other commandments, but of the big ones, apparently, the big ones, thou shalt have no other gods before me. Right before that, he says, “I’m the God who brought you out of Egypt.” So there is some tie to Egypt here. This is the people who’ve been in Egypt for generations. Describe why this is such an important commandment to begin with.
Kerry
It becomes clear from some things Joshua says, and some other things, that Israel has picked up some idolatrous practices while in Egypt. In fact, I’m not sure they’d ever fully gotten rid of them. You know, we have Rachel and Leah coming down from Syria, right? from Laban’s household, where they were idolatrous, and Rachel’s bringing idols with her.
It’s clear they’ve come to worship Jehovah, but I don’t know if they ever fully stopped worshiping other gods and worshiped only Jehovah. When Jacob is told to take his family to Bethel, the first thing he does is, he says, can you please get rid of these gods? We need to get these little gods gone, and they bury them under a tree.
So maybe he’s successful at that point and when they go down to Egypt, there’s no idolatry, but I kind of think that some of his children were probably still struggling with idolatry a little bit. Whether they were or not, it’s pretty clear that in Egypt, where there’s so much idolatry, it’s hard to avoid, right? However much you can think of idolatry, it’s there. There are hundreds and hundreds of gods to choose from. They seem to have picked this up.
So as they’re coming out, God is telling them, you’ve got to get rid of this. And it almost seems to me like he’s taking them where they are, and taking them another step. I’m not sure of this, but it feels like when he says, “don’t have other gods before me,” that this could be taken two ways, and it’s probably intentionally two ways. One way is, right now, you believe in lots of gods. Let’s start with worshiping me and not anyone else. And eventually that becomes worship me because there isn’t anyone else, right?
We know there aren’t really any other gods, but it seems like it’s stated in a way that it can take the Israelites where they are and get them to where they need to be.
Maurine
It seems to me that that is reinforced in the idea that God says he’s a jealous God. What does jealous mean there? I’m struck that the reason God gives this commandment is because no other God or idea of God can possibly save you. No other God or idea of God can possibly transform you. No other God can, because there is no other God, can’t comfort you. This is such a commandment for our well being. not about worshiping me, because I need your attention, or I’m a glory monger, or something like that. God is nothing like that.
He is this God who wants to give us gifts, if we will not worship other gods. And I think that we think we, personally, in our society today, are free of idolatry, because we don’t have little things, little images, in our home that we bow to, but I think that whatever we hold as the most important thing in our life becomes a kind of god to us. So I’m interested in your reflection on that.
Kerry
This is a really important point. So let’s first of all start out with this idea that we are clearly idolatrous today—that there’s no doubt of it. The idols have changed, and for us, only in some ways, right? It’s really still whatever the world is telling us, we should look to. So that’s why the Israelites were turning to Ra or whatever god they were turning to later, it’s Ba’al and so on. It’s because the world is telling them that’s where you should turn and look for value for safety or whatever else. That’s where you should turn.
Today, the world is telling us different things. It’s telling us power and prestige. We have all these social ideas. I think that, actually, the greatest idol that Latter-day Saints ae struggling with today is that they have learned to think about things the way the world has taught them to think about things. So when it comes to social issues, all sorts of other issues, issues of who our identity is, or what’s valuable, and what’s important, we let the world tell us how to think about these things. Then when a prophet says something different, we’re really quite bothered by it. That’s because the world’s way of thinking has become our idol.
I’s interesting what you said, Maurine, about how the reason God wants us to not worship anything else is because nothing else will save us. This takes us all the way back to the idea of the Abrahamic sacrifice. I believe the reason Abraham had to go through an Abraham sacrifice—and the reason all of us will—is because if there is something we love more than God, then we will trust in that more than God and look to it more than God, but nothing else can save us.
I’ve often said, as good as my wife is for me, and she absolutely is, good for me, she makes me a better person. She helps me come to God. As good as she is for me, she can’t save me. I know she’d like to, but we both know she can’t. Only God can save me, and so if I love even my wife more than God, I’m not going to be saved, not because God needs me to love him more, but because whatever I love more, I trust more, and I’ll be trusting in the wrong thing, and I won’t be saved.
So that whole idea of the Abrahamic sacrifice ties into this first commandment. The idea that we love God more than anything else, so we worship God and God only because only God can save us, and you better be ready to jettison everything else, because that’s the only way to be saved.
Scot
I think that this whole idea of this jealous god is interesting, because we always take that as a negative. But, you know, that Hebrew word, isn’t it, is it pronounced Hana? It’s kind of q-a-n-n-a-h, and it means possessing sensitive and deep feelings. You know, I’m a sensitive God. I have deep feelings. I am one who possesses the deepest of feelings for you, and so instead of taking it so negatively that he’s jealous as we kind of have underlined the word jealous and as a negative quality, I think there’s something about this, we can learn that he’s actually a pretty amazing god.
Kerry
I absolutely agree with you, but I would say it has this element in it that we’re letting the world determine how we think, right? So we’re assigning meaning to this that shouldn’t be assigned. I think we could say it this way. God is saying, I love you more than anything else and I want you to love me more than anything else. There’s a reason for that. It’s not because he’s just so in need of love. It’s because if we don’t love Him more than anything else, He can’t save us. But that is what it means. Don’t love something more than me. That causes me and you to have a problem. So it is jealous in those terms, that he doesn’t want us to love something else.
It is also what you’re saying. It comes from this strong and deep love that he has for us, and that he knows we need to have for him if we are going to be safe.
Maurine
It seems to me, like the commandment that says that we should not take the Lord’s name in vain, is also much larger than we sometimes think of it. We think of it as swearing, and it’s much bigger, I think. What would you respond to that?
Kerry
Yes, I would agree. Really, what he’s saying is that don’t take it in emptiness; don’t take it and use my name in a way that has no power or authority behind it. So that means all sorts of things. It’s not just not taking His name in vain. I try and think about who I’m talking about. You’ll find I don’t use the word Jesus very much. I know some people are just throwing it out there all the time, and I’m not saying that that’s wrong. But for me, at least, I’m not going to say that word, that name, without thinking about and trying to feel deeply about it, because I don’t want it to be an emptiness.
I’m also not going to bear testimony without thinking and closing in that name without thinking about what it means. I certainly don’t want to give a prayer or a blessing. unworthily or without that real power behind it. I think it means don’t do this in the way the world does it. Do this with me really behind it.
Maurine
I think it’s really interesting, when we’re in a rush, we get to the end of our prayer, and then just really quickly say, and then rush the closing out quickly. What we should be doing with the prayer is putting Christ’s atonement really upon it, you know? He is the advocate before the Father for us, and we just flip that phrase out without even thinking, and it’s huge phrase. It means so much and is so sacred.
Scot
As we open the first chapter in Exodus 24, it sounds like the Lord wants us to see His face. And as you study the gospel in all of the standard works, there is a common theme that, first of all, God is not far from us, but second, he really, really does want to reveal Himself to us. Now, if our faith is only strong enough that he reveals himself through his Holy Spirit, that’s not a bad thing. I mean, having the Holy Spirit testify of him is about as real as it gets. But interestingly enough, in this Exodus 24, he’s really inviting a visitation like unto the First Vision. Tell us about this setting.
Kerry
And I love what you said, too. I think that the plan is that the initial step, and for most of us, that will probably be the step we spend our lives in. But the initial step is to come into God’s presence by coming into the presence of a member of the Godhead and that’s the Holy Ghost, whose job it is to reveal the Son to us and the Son’s job is to bring us to the Father.
That’s the first step, but God does not want that to be the final step for any of us. He wants us all to actually come back to be with him fully in his presence.
He wanted all of Israel to literally come into his presence. The phrase is often, “ Behold, my face,” or “Come into my face.” That’s the word you use or the way you talk about someone being before you or in front of you. In Hebrew, you should talk about it in front of your face or before your face. But he wants them to come into his presence.
They decide they’re not going to do that. They’re afraid that they can’t survive God’s presence. Joseph Smith teaches us that’s why they get the lower law. As a result, instead what is going to happen is that God is going to say, okay, I still want representatives of Israel to come into my presence. There are some people who believe enough or who have enough faith and are willing enough to come into my presence, so let’s do that. Whoever can, let’s do that. So you’re going to get Aaron and Moses and Nadab and 70 of the elders of Israel. It seems like this is where the idea of a 70 comes from. But 70 of the elders of Israel are all going to come literally and physically into God’s presence and enjoy the blessings that he wanted to give everyone, that eventually he will give everyone who is willing.
Scot
I was thinking, as you were talking, that since you did this book, I Saw the Lord, which is the compilation of the nine accounts of Joseph Smith of the First Vision,” I wondered if you’re working on the 70 accounts of the 70 here. I would love to see that in one nice, big book. Wouldn’t that be wonderful?
Kerry
So would I.
Maurine
But isn’t it interesting how many people in the beginning of this dispensation were able to behold the face of God, with Joseph in the school of the prophets. The meeting in January, before the Kirtland Temple was dedicated. There were incredible outpourings. So, this is not unique. What we’re seeing here, It’s Sinai. We have experienced this in our own restoration.
Kerry
Yes, and it is true that we find often, at the beginning of a dispensation, a greater outpouring of this opportunity, and it seems to be a little bit like we saw in the book of Moses. Adam and Eve have personal experiences with God, and that allows them to testify of God in a way that is important for all of their family after that.
So we have Moses and the 70 being able to testify of that. We have a whole bunch of people at the beginning of our dispensation, and then we can read those accounts and have the spirit bear witness to us of their truth. That is always based on someone’s firsthand experience with God, the witness of God.
Scot, you’ve actually inspired me. I did do an article once on Old Testament accounts of seeing God, but we, it might be worth doing a thing, just doing scriptural accounts of coming into God’s presence and what we can learn from those who do.. Maybe we’ll have to work on that together. That be fun.
Scot
That would be awesome.
Maurine
It’s so interesting that there are all these accounts, of seeing God face to face, and yet in the New Testament, we hear that no one has ever seen God. and lived. And that is an interesting, contrary set of statements.
Kerry
Yes, and of course, Joseph Smith changes that a little bit, right? The idea is, though, exactly what we were talking about, that our nature is so incompatible with God’s nature, that if God does not change our nature, we cannot survive his presence. He is so glorious in comparison with us. But thank goodness, because of the atoning sacrifice of his son, we can, and that you actually see that reflected here at the beginning of chapter 24, if it’s all right if we could jump in and look at a couple of these things, because it is the covenant.
We have been and will talk about the covenant a lot this year. Covenant is extremely important in the Old Testament in all of scripture, and I think President Nelson wants us to realize that. but so this covenant idea is so important, and we’re going to see that covenant is always entered into via sacrifice. That’s how you enter into a covenant. And it’s important. There’s a dual set of symbols there. Because when you sacrifice, you’re giving up something, and I think in the end, what you have to give up is yourself and then, you partake of Christ’s sacrifice. The sacrifices in the temple where you enter into the covenant, our temple or their temple, or the sacrifice we’re reading here.
Mount Sinai is a temple, as we’ve talked about before. It really, truly is a temple. They symbolized both what we sacrifice and are partaking of Christ’s sacrifice. You can see that when we get in chapter 24, verse 3, Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments, so that this is the covenant he’s talking about and the people answered with one voice and said, all the words which the Lord has said will we do?
I think that’s the name of the Come Follow Me lesson. “All the words of the Lord we will do.” Moses writes these words and he builds an altar under the hill, 12 pillars, according to the 12 tribes of Israel. This is symbolic of covenant for all of Israel. In verse 5, he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the Lord.
Now, this is really wonderful. Those are two different kinds of offerings. The burnt offering is something that is wholly consumed by the fire. No one eats anything from that burn offering. It’s all given to the Lord and there’s some great symbolism in there, again, that we have to completely give of ourselves, fully consecrated, and also that Christ fully went through the Atoning sacrifice and was completely consumed in that.
Then we have the peace offerings. Peace offerings are shalom offerings, are offerings that make you whole or full. Those you partake. You eat most of that offering. That is kind of an offering that’s designed for you to eat. What you have is a ritual meal taking place here and that’s wonderful.
There’s some symbolism that runs throughout the ancient Near East and the idea is that as you bring someone into your house, these hospitality laws that we talk about often. When someone comes to you, they become part of your household. The way you signify that is by washing them, washing their feet and so on. You give them something nice and clean to wear and then you feed them. Eating dinner with your family, and we do that right in our day. Have a family dinner with us. That makes you feel like you’re part of our family. You’re really part of the family iwhen you’ve eaten with them.
So here is what, in essence, is God’s house, Mount Sinai. They have a meal with God. He has invited them in. They are now part of His family. I think we see echoes of both elements of this in the sacrament today, where it’s symbolic of Christ’s sacrifice and we partake of that sacrifice, but we’re also having a meal in the Lord’s house, and we’re becoming part of his family—week after week after week, which I think is beautiful stuff.
Maurine
What’s interesting to me about this is that the Israelites say that they will do all that they’re asked—will do it. That’s repeated a couple of times, and I think they fully intended to do it. I think they wanted to do it. But it is interesting that in that process of coming close to the Lord, and keeping your covenants, you mentioned a burnt offering that is utterly consumed. That means that there are weaknesses and inclinations and ways of looking at things that have to die inside of us that have to be utterly consumed. And C.S. Lewis, again, said that it is hard for us to give up our favorite weakness, that our favorite weakness stands in the way of that road back to heaven.
I think that it is interesting that when part of us dies, that is not unpainful. I mean it’s glorious in the end because you are free from a burden you didn’t even know you were carrying. But in the short term, it can be really challenging.
I tell you a quick story. Scot and I were on a cruise with a doctor, and one day at dinner, he said, “Maurine, how’s your health? And I said, “My health is great. I am doing well. Everything is wonderful.” He said, “No you’re not.”
“Oh, really?”
He said, “You have a severe sinus infection, and I think you probably even need surgery.” I said, “Oh”, you know, and he said, “I’ll do the surgery for you if you can come to my house.” And that was two states away, if you can come up to where I operate. In other words. And I’ll do it for free. But you don’t feel well.
First of all, I was amazed that he noticed that I didn’t feel well, and secondly, I really didn’t want to go through surgery, and sinus surgery is very close to your eyes and your brain and I wasn’t sure about it. But finally, it got so that we took him up on that offer, and we went up and had this operation.
He had done 3,000 of these operations. They were supposed to take only a couple of hours, but when I came out four hours later, he said, “You were one at the top three worst cases I’ve ever seen, and your bone had grown very thin on your sinus, to your brain. You were on your way to a brain infection.” So he really saved my life in some ways, and I didn’t even know I was sick. He said, “You’re sick. You need some help,” and I think that’s what the Lord does to us.
We accommodate to being as we are, and we don’t even know that there are parts of us that need to change. So, yes, children of Israel say, we’ll do it, and then they can’t pull it off, because that road can sometimes be humbling and difficult. and freeing in the end.
Kerry
That’s so beautifully said. The sacrifice of ourselves is so absolutely necessary. It’s Lewis, who said, God wants to kill the natural self in us. But that’s painful, you know, these phrases we get, like he’s going to purge us, that doesn’t sound nice. does it? But, it’s what’s necessary, and as you said in the end, is so freeing and beautiful because what it gives us again, C.S. Lewis, is His self. Right? He gets rid of the natural self and gives us himself instead. That’s a beautiful replacement.
Scot
I’m fascinated by the commandment about keeping the Sabbath day holy. We sometimes take it lightly in our times because in this workaday world, it’s just another day for many people. I remember when I was growing up in Rolla, Missouri, there was a little shopping center, the Hillcrest Shopping Center, and I remember this so clearly because they had a shoebox that had a hole cut in the top of it, kind of like one of those Valentine’s boxes, and it was right by what we would now call the service desk. It had a question on it. Should we open on Sundays? We’re taking a poll, and you had to write out your feelings about it and fold it in half and drop it in.
Now, I was, like, maybe seven years old when I noticed this, but I remember it set deep in my soul because I thought, why would they ever open on Sunday? Isn’t Sunday a special day? And within a few weeks after that poll, they opened on Sunday, and because they opened it, Hillcrest Shopping Center, well, A & P had to open as well, and Kroger’s, of course, they’re not going to be staying closed while everyone else is open on Sunday and making money. So Kroger’s opened.
We didn’t have a big town, but it was a university town. We had a sophisticated audience there. All of a sudden, everything changed. I noticed the same thing today. I noticed that, all of a sudden, our mail gets delivered on Sundays. I mean, certain packages. We have FedEx delivery or an Amazon delivery on a Sunday. I think, Why are we not paying attention to this? And why did the Lord set this up, that there was a Sabbath that Israel should keep? And there’s something about it that blesses them, but also tells us about that a little bit.
Kerry
This idea that we need a day where we unplug from worldly things and worldly ideas, and are completely and fully plugged into the things of God. Because the world is clamoring and is loud all the time. And I think even more so in our day than in Moses’s day. There’s so much that’s jumping to get into our ears and in front of our eyes. Just really hammering us to hear more from the world and think more like the world and so on and so on.
As President Nelson pled with us in October 2021 General Conference, please spend a little less time with that, right? Don’t have all your information coming from social media and other sources, he says. And instead, have more of it coming from God. And so we need a day where we rest from the world.
It doesn’t say we just rest, we rest from the world, and instead, we infuse ourselves with God’s ideas, with godliness is what we should say. We are infused with godliness, and thus we can avoid some of the traps of becoming so worldly, and instead become more what we are trying to be.
Scot
I think that’s what he’s saying in Exodus 31, verse 17. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever. This sign of keeping the Sabbath day, holy. This is how he recognizes his people. Are they willing to set aside a day a week to focus on Him? Because it changes us, and we become more like Him. We’re purified little by little, line upon line, precept upon precept, lesson by lesson, interaction by interaction. Over time, we become different people, and the Lord recognizes us, and this is the sign between us that he knows us, is that we are keeping His Sabbath.
Maurine
We know that in one of these trips up Sinai, Moses is there for 40 days and 40 nights and there is clearly glory on top of the mountain, like a devouring fire. The eyes of the children of Israel are upon this. Moses is gone for a really long time. Do we know anything about the nature of the experience that Moses is having?
Kerry
We don’t. I wish we knew more, so we do get that at the end of this chapter 24, where he goes up with Aaron and Nadab and Joshua and the 70 elders, and they all see God, and they have a hard time describing how amazing God is. Then everyone else goes back except for Moses and Joshua. They go further up into the mountain, and the cloud covers them so no one else can see what’s going on, and the glory of the Lord comes down, and it says the cloud covered it 6 days. (We’re in verse 16 of chapter 24.)
The seventh day He called into Moses out of the midst of the cloud. So Moses has a week of sitting there being prepared. He’s preparing himself spiritually for a week to have more. He just saw God. That is a pretty good experience. But he has to get prepared to see God even more, which is amazing to me. Seven days of preparation to have a greater experience with God. That’s when we get at the end of that chapter that he’s going to be there for 40 days and 40 nights.
While we don’t know what happens there, I’m sure there’s some teaching. Maybe this is where some of the story of Moses chapter one happens, but I don’t think so because in Moses chapter one, he is being told that he’s going to deliver Israel from Egypt and he’s already done that by the time we get to, to Exodus 24.
So I don’t think that’s it, but I don’t know what all happens there, but we do get a little clue that he has this long experience with God, whatever is happening there, he has to be transfigured and his nature has changed so significantly. We know he was transfigured in the experience. It’s in Moses chapter one. I’m going to assume I can’t see any other way other than to say that they’re all transfigured when they see him at the beginning of Exodus 24.
In this 40 days and 40 nights, (which probably means a long time, I don’t think it means exactly 40 days and 40 nights. It’s a way of just saying, this was a long time), but he has changed so significantly that when he comes back down, his nature doesn’t immediately change back to a worldly nature. His face is so bright that he’s incompatible with the children of Israel, and he has to veil his face because they can’t take being in his presence. It takes a little while for that glory to kind of wear off and him to become worldly enough.
I don’t think he’s hoping to become more worldly, but I think we’re just talking about his physical nature has been changed so significantly that it takes a while for it to become more like the rest of Israel so that they can stand being in his presence because initially they can’t take it and he has to veil his face.
That gives you just a clue that whatever experience he’s having, it’s transformative literally. It is a transformative experience. It’s just great and wonderful stuff.
Maurine
So it’s another example of that darkness that is in us, because we’re in a fallen world. and we’ve learned fallen things, is gradually transformed to be light. In Moses’ case, because of his experience and because of who he was, his face shines, and I suppose that in the long run, that is why, with more and more experience with the Lord, we see angels like Moroni, who come, and are shining. There’s something different that has happened.
It’s interesting, we see Abinadi’s face, also shines like this, but we also have several accounts from church history where Joseph Smith’s face is shining after he’s receiving revelation.
Kerry
I agree. It’s fascinating stuff, and maybe I’ll just recommend, I’m just kind of halfway through listening to it right now, and I can’t remember the author, but there’s this great new book called, um, The Spiritual Physics of Light, that just gives you a lot of interesting stuff to think about in these terms. I’m really enjoying listening to that book in any case. So some fascinating stuff.
Maurine
Yes, I’ve read it too. I like that book. So meanwhile, Moses is having this transcendent experience, and the children of Israel below are frightened, and they’re losing faith, and they want to make a golden calf. I think it’s so fascinating, the part that fear plays in stopping our progression, because we become fearful of anything we don’t know. We become fearful of a more dedicated path. We think that there’s something that we’re going to have to give up that’s going to really hurt.
In their case, I think they were just frightened that they had lost Moses on the top of the mountain, that this glorified fire burning on the top of the mountain looked threatening and fearful and, boy, let’s turn quickly to something familiar.
Kerry
Yeah, I agree. Remember that they were afraid to begin with, and we talked about this last time. They were afraid that they would die if they came into the presence of God. and so it just plays naturally into the fears they already have. Again, that would be accurate if God didn’t have the capability of changing them, which he can do because of the atoning sacrifice of his Son.
But, they have this realistic fear that is only realistic if you don’t believe God can save you. But they have that fear. So the fact that Moses isn’t coming down plays into their fear. They’re like, oh, see, we knew you couldn’t really spend time with God and survive it.
So Moses is gone. We need to have a plan B. I think again, it’s just, as you said, it plays into that lack of faith and fear, and remember, fear and faith can’t exist in the same place. So they’re going to start to go spiritually sideways and immediately start to break the first commandment, which they’ve been given, right—not having other gods and not having graven images. They’re trying to find a way to wiggle their way through this.
We don’t usually just jump from one thing to the other. We start to rationalize. We start to wiggle our way around, really coming to God. I think that’s what we see happening with the Children of Israel and with Aaron.
Scot
I find that I am not the least bit attracted to worshiping a calf of any kind, or a bovine of any kind, but why would the children of Israel turn to some graven image like this? Was Egypt still in them?
Kerry
I think that there’s kind of a middle ground they’re trying to find. It is common in the ancient Near East for any god to have a sacred animal associated with it. And that’s really true of ancient Egypt, especially. For example, Amun is associated with a ram, and you get these ram-headed sphinxes as you go up to the temple of Amun at Karnak. A bull is associated with a number of gods, especially Ta, sometimes other gods. We have depictions of El, a Canaanite god, who is associated with the bull. We have depictions of him standing on a bull.
But in Egypt, you ought to just depict the animal. So again, Horus is associated with the falcon. So sometimes you just picture the falcon and it’s supposed to remind you of the god. That’s something that they are accustomed to. Now, I’m also going to say that I think that they have some problems with idolatry. Joshua makes it pretty clear. Are you going to worship those gods you had over there? I wonder if they were ever fully not idolatrous. I think that Jacob is not idolatrous at all, but he goes up and he marries Rachel and Leah, and they’re in a household where they are worshiping Jehovah and other gods.
Remember, that’s why Abraham left that family behind. because they kept worshiping idols. They’ve been raised in this family where they have other gods. Rachel takes idols with her when she leaves, and we see just a little while later when Jacob is trying to get his sons to go to Bethel with him, to be able to have an experience with God there, he tells them, we’ve got to get rid of these idols. Let’s get rid of the idols and they can finally give them their idols and he buries it under a tree. You get this sense that maybe they had never fully…Maybe Rachel and Leah and Bilhah, uh, Zilpah had, never fully gotten rid of a little hint of idolatry. When they go down to Egypt, where there are so many gods that, as a professional Egyptologist, I can’t keep track of how many gods there are. That’s how many, I mean, there are just so many gods. And they seem to bring some of that out with them.
So they have a tendency towards idolatry anyway. Then they have this idea that you can depict an animal and it will remind you of the god that you are trying to think of. And I think that’s what they do. They build this calf, right? And we know that there’s some symbolism that associates calves with God because you sacrifice young bullocks as part of a sacrifice that represents Christ. They seem to be trying to find that kind of middle way of starting back towards their idolatry, but feeling okay about it.
Aaron is going to tell them these are the gods which brought you out of Egypt. So they’re pointing towards Jehovah, but they’re doing it in exactly the way he said not to, and in a way that it surely will lead to idolatry. I think so often we do that. To your point, Scot, yeah, I my grandpa raised beef cattle. I was part of that birthing process and castration, all that stuff enough. I have zero desire to worship any cows, right? I think they’re stupid animals. They’re tasty but stupid. So, I have no desire for that.
I think our tendency is to point to our Israelite ancestors and say, what was wrong with them? When, really, we should say, okay, they are ancestors, we probably have the same proclivity. Not what was wrong with them and not even “do I do the same thing they do?” The question should be, how do I do it? We have modern day idolatry. There is no doubt in my mind, every single one of us struggles with modern day idolatry. And I think we probably do it in the same way they do it. Where they’re saying, well, I’m worshiping Jehovah, so it’s just fine. My guess is that we worship Jehovah, and some ways we worship him in a way that is really worldly, but we feel great about it because Jehovah’s in the mix. Right?
We’re going to church and I want to go to church and when I’m at church, I want to worship God this way. You know, and I want to tell the prophets, actually, you’ve got the wrong policy on same-sex marriage or on whatever it is. And so I’m just going to tell you the right way to worship God because I know and really what we’re doing is we’re just being influenced by Egypt, right? By the world. Our way of thinking, our values, are so influenced by the ways of the world that we try to worship Jehovah in a worldly way, and the ideas of the world influence so much of what we do that I am convinced that we’re idolatrous without even recognizing it. We’re so happy because we’ve got Jehovah somewhere in there.
Maurine
Well, idols are also very handy, because they comfort us, and we make them demand nothing of us, and they are easy to use as justification for whatever it is we believe. Now, because my idol doesn’t really talk back to me, but I do think it is an interesting challenge for us in this modern world, as we pray to a God we cannot see. And we feel him, but we cannot see him. I think that that’s why it’s so easy for people to turn to other things, that just simply look more tangible. but aren’t.
Kerry
Well, and as we said earlier, we hear so much more from the world than from God. Even someone who is trying to be as godly as possible, if you have to have a full time job and you have to manage life, you’re going to hear from the world more than God. It’s easy for that to become the focus. Although there’s an interesting image, and I love what you said, Maurine, that at least initially, it seems like our modern idols, whatever that be, prestige, wealth, having being accepted by those around us, whatever that idol is, initially, it seems like it’s not asking much of us. And God clearly does ask a lot of us. In fact, as we said, he’s asking for us. Right? That what he’s asking for. Give me your whole self. That’s a lot. Now, it’s a good lot, and in the end, if we take his burden upon us, it becomes light, right?
Isaiah has this really interesting image where, and he’s talking about something literal, but it’s clear he has a symbolic intent as well. Where he talks about hauling the idols of Babylon, and he’s probably making reference to when Persia conquers Babylon, and they take their idols and they haul them back to Persia. But he talks about taking these big idols and putting them in a wagon and hauling them back, but they’re so heavy that eventually it becomes a burden that’s heavier than the wagon can bear. And I think that’s exactly what happens with us.
We feel like, okay, if your idol is to be accepted by the world, so you’re going to think the way the world thinks and value the way the world values, initially that feels like there’s no burden, but in reality, this is a burden that will weigh heavier and heavier upon you until it becomes more than you can bear. But no one is going to help you carry that burden. Satan’s not going help you carry that burden. He wants it to become more burdensome. Whereas if you are following God, he takes the burden on himself. That’s a beautiful contrast.
Scot
I’m fascinated by Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants, where, starting in verse 21, “Without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh. For without this, no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.” Now, in verse 23, this “Now, Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God.” We’ve talked about that, “But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence. Therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, and swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fullness of his glory.”
Now, this kind of comes to the point where Moses is coming down and he has a set of tablets. And this contains the higher law, and then he comes right upon them as they’re in this series of rituals or worshiping this golden calf, and he himself, Moses, is really upset by this, and just tell us about this process of him coming down and what he finally came down with after a while.
Kerry
I don’t know that I can fully solve exactly the order of the sequence of how this works. Typically, we say, okay, it’s the calf incident. He comes down with higher law, and he sees the calf, and that’s when, okay, we’re going to destroy these tablets, and we get the lower law. But as you said, in section 84 and elsewhere, Joseph Smith teaches us that they get the lower law because they refuse to come and see God when he asked them to come see him. That would suggest that maybe Moses, during those 40 days and 40 nights, is getting the lower law and he comes down and he’s so upset. I don’t know exactly how that works, but somewhere, probably a combination of all of this is going to make it so that Israel will receive the lower law rather than the higher law. And basically what’s happened is God has said, “Okay, it is clear, you are not ready for all that I want to give you, so let’s give you training wheels, right?”
It’s a little bit like if you were going to teach a young child to ride their bike and after a while you figure, okay, they’re not old enough for whatever—not coordinated or something. Let’s just give them some training wheels for a while, and that will help them get them ready for when they are can ride the bike without these extra training wheels. The lower law is basic. It’s a schoolmaster to Christ, is how Paul puts it, but it’s a set of training wheels to help them be prepared to then receive the higher things of the gospel so that they can come into the presence of God.
When I say “they,” I also mean “we.” We’re a part of the house of Israel. We’re in the midst of taking the training wheels off and doing this for real and hopefully coming into the presence of God and being a true Zion society.
Maurine
So, the children of Israel are at Mount Sinai for almost a year. Then it will be time for them to go forward into the promised land, and going forward into the promised land is filled with difficulties. It a wilderness journey. The Lord promises that he will go with them. In what way is his presence felt?
Kerry
Well, there’s this amazing and beautiful symbol that will be drawn on throughout all the scripture, including the Doctrine and Covenants. It is drawn on everywhere, that God provides for them exactly what they need in a wilderness. So this is a desert wilderness, the kind of place where it’s way too hot during the day, and yet by night, it gets quite cold, right? And it’s very dark. So at night, he has a pillar of fire which provides light and warmth, and by day he has a cloud, which provides shade from an overwhelming light and coolness. So, they can see his presence is with them and I love that the way the Lord organizes this. It’s going to be where the tabernacle is. So they’ve had, in this reading, we get the directions, right? They’ve had Mount Sinai as a temple, a place that allows them to experience God’s presence and while on Mount Sinai, they’re given instructions how to build a portable temple, that’s the tabernacle, and they have these inspired artisans who, I think, in Egypt, were actually trained in how to build very similar structures and features, things that they carried around statues on that would be like the Ark of the Covenant, so on. So they know how to do it and then God inspires them how to do it in a way that will give them the real tabernacle, right? A real temple to God.T
They build this portable thing they can take with them so they can still experience God’s presence when they leave Mount Sinai, which is a temple. They now have a temple, they can continue to experience it. When they make camp, the Tabernacle is to be at the center of camp. They arrange the twelve tribes around, but it’s at the center of camp. This is fantastic symbolism of the temple being at the center of our lives, but that’s not good enough.
The temple can become an idol in and of itself. If we’re focusing on the temple. Remember, the temple is about the presence of God. So it’s God’s presence that is the center of their lives and the center of our lives. Then that is symbolized by this cloud by day or a shade by day and a pillar of fire by night, so that if we can, they can see God is with them, and he is being what they need when they need it. That’s a fantastic symbol for what God is in our lives. Hopefully the center of our lives, being our fire by night and our cloud by day, when in the blistering heat of some elements and moments in our lives, and in the freezing cold, that’s the darkness of some portions of our lives, God is what we need Him to be and can be that presence in the center of our lives.
We have been delighted to be together today in this joint podcast with Dr. Kerry Muhlestein. You’ve been with Scot and Maurine Proctor, with Meridian Magazine’s Come Follow Me podcast. This has been absolutely delightful. We will be studying Exodus chapters 35 to 40, and Leviticus chapters 1, 16, and 19. in a lesson entitled Holiness to the Lord. Thank you all for joining us. We’re grateful to Jenny Oaks Baker for the music, which accompanies this podcast, and to our producer, Michaela Proctor Hutchins. Have a wonderful week and see you next time.
“Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing” Performed by Jenny Oaks Baker. Used with permission © 2003 Shadow Mountain Records
