Thank you! I'm so glad to be reminded that I'm not the only one struggling with this. Note how long these discussions have continued . And these folks are among the best versed and perhaps the most confident in their positions.
Two of the references I keep coming back to are:
"And ye will not suffer your children ... that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin..."
and
"only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;"
So much of the optional suffering in the world stems from God's children fighting and quarreling one with another. I wonder what and how I contribute?
Robert StarlingJanuary 16, 2015
Many thanks to Bro. Millet for sharing his experiences. Having been raised LDS in the Bible Belt (Georgia) and having lived in Utah for the last 20 years,this topic is huge for me. I've spent over 25 years trying to summarize my own studies and beliefs about this dialogue, which I've condensed into my forthcoming book "REALLY Inside Mormonism: Confessions of a Mere Latter-day Christian".
I've also met Greg Johnson and I'm impressed with his devotion to Christ and his willingness to explore mutual interests. As one commenter said, I would have loved to have been a "fly on the wall" at some of the discussions that Bro. Millet described. I'm grateful to all of the participants for the time and energy they've expended in this discussion, and I pray for their continued efforts in that regard.
Myron RichardsonJanuary 14, 2015
Thank you for this article. I also have tried to use the principles that this article espouses and to good effect. I appreciate that we are coming together after so many years of disagreement.
Several years ago I wrote a poem that seems to answer the grace/works issue for me. It is entitled, Saving Grace.
Works don’t save us.
We are saved by grace.
But saving grace
Is only given
To those who have faith.
And faith, if it is real,
Will always produce works.
But not our works,
Nor by our faith,
But by God’s grace
We’re saved.
C BowerJanuary 14, 2015
As a convert to the church in 1979 from the Episcopal church, my family was very upset and no discussion was allowed. In 1990 I asked if I could tell about my conversion. Mom was very vocal for about 45 minutes making all sorts of false accusations. I felt there was an angel holding its hand over my mouth. A few times I just calmly said that isn't true. Finally she said "No one has the authority to start a church but Jesus Christ himself". All I had to say was "That is why I joined this church. I believe he did start this church". As I look at what factors prepared me for my membership in the church I know that my good parents and grandparents and their faithfulness were key. I also belonged to the Masonic youth organization for girls, Job's Daughters where I thoroughly learned of Job's faith, trials, and relationship with his Redeemer. I have always been inspired by that and also learned to feel the spirit in those meeting in many ways, including the singing of beautiful and sacred music.
I am saddened when LDS people or even articles in the Church News, seem to act like Mormon's are the best people or the only good people. When a report is made of humanitarian service the Mormons are highlighted while other good volunteers are minimized. I grew up in a small rural town with very few Momrons but the town was filled with people who cared deeply about each other and did as much for each other as any Mormon community would. The ecumenical cooperation with youth groups, celebrating religious holidays together, etc. were quite beautiful. I have to say that in my workplaces some of the most spiritual people have belonged to various faiths. They pray with a deep faith, try to raise their children to be valiant, and recognize bad things in our society and stand for the right. I hope I've been as good an example as they have. I have many opportunities to be a missionary and many good understandings have come about.
Janelle HowardJanuary 14, 2015
I am glad to hear of friendly Christian dialogues going on. I am reading a book that is along those lines. I received it for Christmas and I am really enjoying it. It is called 'An American, a Mormon and a Christian: What I Believe' by Senator Orrin Hatch. As it says in the foreword it is intended to be "an easy-to-read book that explains the basic doctrines and practices of the LDS Church for those who are curious, as well as for those members who want an easy-to-use guide in talking about the Church with their family and friends." Senator Hatch really ties in everything with the Bible. I highly recommend it!
Sasha Bill KwapinskiJanuary 13, 2015
We need more efforts and dialogues of this nature, and hopefully this will be a continuing and expanding thing. I have had the opportunity to study and learn about several different religions, including the Eastern Orthodox, Sikhs, Baha'is, Zoroastrians, and others. I try to look for those things that are "Virtuous, lovely, of good report, and praiseworthy," and I usually seem to find them. I have had the privilege to present some fireside-type discussions for local Baha'i communities regarding the similarities between our (LDS) faith and theirs.
Incidentally, I find the LDS concept of theosis or divinization to be a very powerful affirmation of the worth, dignity, and ultimate potential of the individual. As such, I found it to be a welcome change (and a welcome relief) from the degrading and belittling of the individual which I had previously encountered among some conservative Protestants.
Christy RutherfordJanuary 13, 2015
I wish that I could be a bug on the wall at one of these gatherings. As the only member of the LDS church in my family of born-again Christians, there has been little of the civility spoken of by Brother Millet.
Recently I had a discussion with my 88 year old mother. It was a fairly civil conversation for a change. We had agreed to disagree years ago, but over the years there have been countless "asides" within my earshot, snide reminders that I am not a "real Christian," etc. This particular night my mother started the conversation. She again brought up that Jesus Christ is part of a trinity and not the same Christ we believe in. After bearing my testimony to her that the Christ I believe in is the one who was born of a virgin, went about doing good, healing the sick, raising the dead and eventually dying on the cross and being resurrected on the third day, she sat quietly. "Well, you certainly sound like a Christian. And you do act like a Christian." Our conversation lasted over an hour - a huge breakthrough as we rarely could speak for more than a few minutes without her stomping out of the room in disgust. It is hard to explain the true breakthrough this was! She listened. Later I could hear her praying in her room. I couldn't understand the words she was saying but I could hear the earnestness in her voice. She has not accepted it (yet), and is in fact in the midst of a terminal disease, so may never accept it in this life.
She told me of an incident that happened several years ago and is one of the reasons she has had no respect for our religion. It is so ridiculous to the point of absurdity but she believes it. She says she is friends with a man who is a former member of the church who had an important leadership position in a small town where he lives. In the town was an adult book store, which he felt had to go. He was in the midst of an ongoing battle to get the store removed from the main street of town, when, according to him, two general authorities from Salt Lake City visited him and asked him to desist. "They had an "interest" in that store and he was making things difficult for them," he said. The man said he left the church after that. I told my mother it couldn't have happened. She insisted it did, and could never accept the church because of that (among countless other reasons). I wonder how many others have bought into this lie. To a member of the LDS chruch, the story is absurd, but to someone who already is filled with anti-Mormon sentiments, it is a death-blow.
Thank you, Brother Millet, for articles like this.
CindyJanuary 13, 2015
I am weeping as I read this most fascinating and heartwarming article. I cannot thank you enough for this endeavor! Around 2008 an evangelical minister, whom I have never met, and I carried on written correspondence about whether or not Mormons are Christians. He had written a column in the local newspaper claiming that Mitt Romney was not a Christian. I wrote to him a cordial letter outlining why I believe we are Christians. He responded with a nine page letter; in fact we had about three exchanges of letters each over the course of our communication. We agreed at the outset that we would avoid any spirit of contention. I responded with many scriptures, several talks from general conferences addressing the topics we covered and a Book of Mormon. In his final letter, he acknowledged that he could see that we were Christians and thanked me for helping him to better understand our beliefs. I am so glad that I took the time and made the effort to engage him and that he helped me to better understand his beliefs. This is so wonderful what you are doing. I hope to hear more about your discussions. Thank you so very much!
Mike MansfieldJanuary 13, 2015
It is so good to hear when people, who have defined "meaning" in their life slightly different from other, can sit with the intent to increase the shared pool of meaning between themselves. This appears to have been a very positive experience for those involved in the process shared in this article. I look forward to the time that those involved with this endeavor are able to share their increased pool of meaning with those that they have influence with. There is much misunderstanding that can be healed through the desire to honestly reflect upon the understandings that we have all developed and to be open to the chance that we have misunderstood the beliefs of others.
Loren E. RamosJanuary 13, 2015
Just finished rereading Elder Oak's talk "Loving Others and Living with Differences" Which we're going to discuss in class today. I think I'll invite my students to read Brother Millet's paper!
Carlos LesueJanuary 13, 2015
My formative years were spent in a small town in Idaho where Mormonism was NOT the majority. Consequently we saw a lot of "we're right and you are wrong" dialog. Since I've come to realize the greatness of this country is not the differences but the basic truths taught by all Christians. Up until recently I believe these truths provided the cultural basis for trust and interpersonal understanding that raised us up from the rest of the world. I believe rather than capitalism it has been the American "goodness" that elevated our national economy. I also believe that unless we reach out to our Christian brethren in a spirit of love and understanding we stand to lose all of it. What is at stake here is the very fiber of the national acceptance of the principals of Christ's teachings woven through our culture that bound us all to a basic trust from which all interpersonal transactions could take place.
doug curranJanuary 13, 2015
I'm so grateful to know that these kinds of civil dialogues have been happening with brother Millet and other Christian scholars. I'm impressed with the comments and know that understanding between Mormons and Evangelicals should continue among men of good will and honest hearts. I wondered if any of this has been done with Catholics? I am a convert from Lutheranism - and married a good Christian Catholic girl, who after three years of respectful talk and comparison, with the idea that we would only add to the truth she already had, joined the Church and hasn't looked back. I'm wondering if anyone has heard of the small book, "Soft Answers to Hard Questions", one LDS man's efforts to engage with different pastors and seek mutual understanding and respect? Thanks again for a stimulating and insightful report.
Doug Curran, Eagle Mountain. Utah
Bob PowelsonJanuary 12, 2015
Grace yes: "For it is by grace ye are saved, after all you can do."
The grace comes AFTER the works. James said about the same thing.
Comments | Return to Story
L. BrintonJuly 9, 2017
Thank you! I'm so glad to be reminded that I'm not the only one struggling with this. Note how long these discussions have continued . And these folks are among the best versed and perhaps the most confident in their positions. Two of the references I keep coming back to are: "And ye will not suffer your children ... that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin..." and "only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;" So much of the optional suffering in the world stems from God's children fighting and quarreling one with another. I wonder what and how I contribute?
Robert StarlingJanuary 16, 2015
Many thanks to Bro. Millet for sharing his experiences. Having been raised LDS in the Bible Belt (Georgia) and having lived in Utah for the last 20 years,this topic is huge for me. I've spent over 25 years trying to summarize my own studies and beliefs about this dialogue, which I've condensed into my forthcoming book "REALLY Inside Mormonism: Confessions of a Mere Latter-day Christian". I've also met Greg Johnson and I'm impressed with his devotion to Christ and his willingness to explore mutual interests. As one commenter said, I would have loved to have been a "fly on the wall" at some of the discussions that Bro. Millet described. I'm grateful to all of the participants for the time and energy they've expended in this discussion, and I pray for their continued efforts in that regard.
Myron RichardsonJanuary 14, 2015
Thank you for this article. I also have tried to use the principles that this article espouses and to good effect. I appreciate that we are coming together after so many years of disagreement. Several years ago I wrote a poem that seems to answer the grace/works issue for me. It is entitled, Saving Grace. Works don’t save us. We are saved by grace. But saving grace Is only given To those who have faith. And faith, if it is real, Will always produce works. But not our works, Nor by our faith, But by God’s grace We’re saved.
C BowerJanuary 14, 2015
As a convert to the church in 1979 from the Episcopal church, my family was very upset and no discussion was allowed. In 1990 I asked if I could tell about my conversion. Mom was very vocal for about 45 minutes making all sorts of false accusations. I felt there was an angel holding its hand over my mouth. A few times I just calmly said that isn't true. Finally she said "No one has the authority to start a church but Jesus Christ himself". All I had to say was "That is why I joined this church. I believe he did start this church". As I look at what factors prepared me for my membership in the church I know that my good parents and grandparents and their faithfulness were key. I also belonged to the Masonic youth organization for girls, Job's Daughters where I thoroughly learned of Job's faith, trials, and relationship with his Redeemer. I have always been inspired by that and also learned to feel the spirit in those meeting in many ways, including the singing of beautiful and sacred music. I am saddened when LDS people or even articles in the Church News, seem to act like Mormon's are the best people or the only good people. When a report is made of humanitarian service the Mormons are highlighted while other good volunteers are minimized. I grew up in a small rural town with very few Momrons but the town was filled with people who cared deeply about each other and did as much for each other as any Mormon community would. The ecumenical cooperation with youth groups, celebrating religious holidays together, etc. were quite beautiful. I have to say that in my workplaces some of the most spiritual people have belonged to various faiths. They pray with a deep faith, try to raise their children to be valiant, and recognize bad things in our society and stand for the right. I hope I've been as good an example as they have. I have many opportunities to be a missionary and many good understandings have come about.
Janelle HowardJanuary 14, 2015
I am glad to hear of friendly Christian dialogues going on. I am reading a book that is along those lines. I received it for Christmas and I am really enjoying it. It is called 'An American, a Mormon and a Christian: What I Believe' by Senator Orrin Hatch. As it says in the foreword it is intended to be "an easy-to-read book that explains the basic doctrines and practices of the LDS Church for those who are curious, as well as for those members who want an easy-to-use guide in talking about the Church with their family and friends." Senator Hatch really ties in everything with the Bible. I highly recommend it!
Sasha Bill KwapinskiJanuary 13, 2015
We need more efforts and dialogues of this nature, and hopefully this will be a continuing and expanding thing. I have had the opportunity to study and learn about several different religions, including the Eastern Orthodox, Sikhs, Baha'is, Zoroastrians, and others. I try to look for those things that are "Virtuous, lovely, of good report, and praiseworthy," and I usually seem to find them. I have had the privilege to present some fireside-type discussions for local Baha'i communities regarding the similarities between our (LDS) faith and theirs. Incidentally, I find the LDS concept of theosis or divinization to be a very powerful affirmation of the worth, dignity, and ultimate potential of the individual. As such, I found it to be a welcome change (and a welcome relief) from the degrading and belittling of the individual which I had previously encountered among some conservative Protestants.
Christy RutherfordJanuary 13, 2015
I wish that I could be a bug on the wall at one of these gatherings. As the only member of the LDS church in my family of born-again Christians, there has been little of the civility spoken of by Brother Millet. Recently I had a discussion with my 88 year old mother. It was a fairly civil conversation for a change. We had agreed to disagree years ago, but over the years there have been countless "asides" within my earshot, snide reminders that I am not a "real Christian," etc. This particular night my mother started the conversation. She again brought up that Jesus Christ is part of a trinity and not the same Christ we believe in. After bearing my testimony to her that the Christ I believe in is the one who was born of a virgin, went about doing good, healing the sick, raising the dead and eventually dying on the cross and being resurrected on the third day, she sat quietly. "Well, you certainly sound like a Christian. And you do act like a Christian." Our conversation lasted over an hour - a huge breakthrough as we rarely could speak for more than a few minutes without her stomping out of the room in disgust. It is hard to explain the true breakthrough this was! She listened. Later I could hear her praying in her room. I couldn't understand the words she was saying but I could hear the earnestness in her voice. She has not accepted it (yet), and is in fact in the midst of a terminal disease, so may never accept it in this life. She told me of an incident that happened several years ago and is one of the reasons she has had no respect for our religion. It is so ridiculous to the point of absurdity but she believes it. She says she is friends with a man who is a former member of the church who had an important leadership position in a small town where he lives. In the town was an adult book store, which he felt had to go. He was in the midst of an ongoing battle to get the store removed from the main street of town, when, according to him, two general authorities from Salt Lake City visited him and asked him to desist. "They had an "interest" in that store and he was making things difficult for them," he said. The man said he left the church after that. I told my mother it couldn't have happened. She insisted it did, and could never accept the church because of that (among countless other reasons). I wonder how many others have bought into this lie. To a member of the LDS chruch, the story is absurd, but to someone who already is filled with anti-Mormon sentiments, it is a death-blow. Thank you, Brother Millet, for articles like this.
CindyJanuary 13, 2015
I am weeping as I read this most fascinating and heartwarming article. I cannot thank you enough for this endeavor! Around 2008 an evangelical minister, whom I have never met, and I carried on written correspondence about whether or not Mormons are Christians. He had written a column in the local newspaper claiming that Mitt Romney was not a Christian. I wrote to him a cordial letter outlining why I believe we are Christians. He responded with a nine page letter; in fact we had about three exchanges of letters each over the course of our communication. We agreed at the outset that we would avoid any spirit of contention. I responded with many scriptures, several talks from general conferences addressing the topics we covered and a Book of Mormon. In his final letter, he acknowledged that he could see that we were Christians and thanked me for helping him to better understand our beliefs. I am so glad that I took the time and made the effort to engage him and that he helped me to better understand his beliefs. This is so wonderful what you are doing. I hope to hear more about your discussions. Thank you so very much!
Mike MansfieldJanuary 13, 2015
It is so good to hear when people, who have defined "meaning" in their life slightly different from other, can sit with the intent to increase the shared pool of meaning between themselves. This appears to have been a very positive experience for those involved in the process shared in this article. I look forward to the time that those involved with this endeavor are able to share their increased pool of meaning with those that they have influence with. There is much misunderstanding that can be healed through the desire to honestly reflect upon the understandings that we have all developed and to be open to the chance that we have misunderstood the beliefs of others.
Loren E. RamosJanuary 13, 2015
Just finished rereading Elder Oak's talk "Loving Others and Living with Differences" Which we're going to discuss in class today. I think I'll invite my students to read Brother Millet's paper!
Carlos LesueJanuary 13, 2015
My formative years were spent in a small town in Idaho where Mormonism was NOT the majority. Consequently we saw a lot of "we're right and you are wrong" dialog. Since I've come to realize the greatness of this country is not the differences but the basic truths taught by all Christians. Up until recently I believe these truths provided the cultural basis for trust and interpersonal understanding that raised us up from the rest of the world. I believe rather than capitalism it has been the American "goodness" that elevated our national economy. I also believe that unless we reach out to our Christian brethren in a spirit of love and understanding we stand to lose all of it. What is at stake here is the very fiber of the national acceptance of the principals of Christ's teachings woven through our culture that bound us all to a basic trust from which all interpersonal transactions could take place.
doug curranJanuary 13, 2015
I'm so grateful to know that these kinds of civil dialogues have been happening with brother Millet and other Christian scholars. I'm impressed with the comments and know that understanding between Mormons and Evangelicals should continue among men of good will and honest hearts. I wondered if any of this has been done with Catholics? I am a convert from Lutheranism - and married a good Christian Catholic girl, who after three years of respectful talk and comparison, with the idea that we would only add to the truth she already had, joined the Church and hasn't looked back. I'm wondering if anyone has heard of the small book, "Soft Answers to Hard Questions", one LDS man's efforts to engage with different pastors and seek mutual understanding and respect? Thanks again for a stimulating and insightful report. Doug Curran, Eagle Mountain. Utah
Bob PowelsonJanuary 12, 2015
Grace yes: "For it is by grace ye are saved, after all you can do." The grace comes AFTER the works. James said about the same thing.
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