If I may humbly make a request to those seeking to invite members to return: please do not pretend that the past was anything other than it was. Along with this newfound transparency, I often hear statements like "that was never doctrine, it was always just policy" or "the church never tried to cover this up," or "that was just the opinion of [X], it was never taught as revelation."
For many topics, those statements are simply not true.
We can say that X was "just policy" in hindsight, but members (and leaders) at the time would not have treated it as such.
We can look backwards and find cherry-pick instances where the church did describe Y in an Improvement Era article in the 70s or an authority mentioned Z in a conference talk in the 80s; but that doesn't change the reality that Y was rarely discussed, and that its near universal omission from most correlated material was obviously intentional.
I knew a lot of things from my parents growing up, from BYU publications, or FARMS/FAIR essays here and there. But even then, I've increasingly discovered over time that I was mistaken about more than I could have imagined. Thomas Marsh did not leave the church over milk strippings. Church leaders did not end polygamy in 1890. Some individuals were, in fact, excommunicated for taking stands against the church's racism (and those individuals' beliefs would today align with the church's official stance).
StacyJuly 13, 2019
Fantastic article. Regarding one of the comments, it is complete nonsense to not refer to Heavenly Mother because she's too sacred. Read the Gospel Topics Essay on Heavenly Mother. No prophet, apostle, or General Authority has claimed we shouldn't talk about Her. It was one CES teacher once and thus the urban myth began that She's too sacred to discuss. Can you imagine anyone saying we shouldn't talk about Heavenly Father because He's too sacred. Does anyone actually think that God is not married to His equal? My kids are sometimes rude to me, but I love them and forgive them because I'm their mother. Heavenly Mother is infinitely more loving, knowing and powerful. It's insulting to expect any less from Her. She doesn't need to be protected--She's a GOD! Did you ever consider that maybe the reason we don't know more about Her is because people have just accepted what little revelation there is about Her? Revelation doesn't magically pour out on people's heads. Leaders and members have to ask in order to get answers. Also, most women I know in the church do not want to be put on a pedestal or be told they're superior. They want to be treated with respect and equality. Infantilizing Heavenly Mother and women into beings that need to be protected is exactly what is driving many women from the church.
Andrew ChildsJuly 10, 2019
What Boanerges Rubalcava said. My thoughts exactly.
Jay GoldthwaiteJuly 10, 2019
I also refer to the amazing talk by Lawrence Corbridge at BYU. He was asked by church leaders to study many Anti-Mormon writings, and he was powerfully affected by them. He talks in detail about the experience. But he also explains why he was able to get through all that material without losing his testimony, his faith, his conversion. He teaches a fact that the "anti's" poke at the branches of our doctrine rather than at the heart. Or perhaps better said, at the secondary questions that arise from the history of the church among imperfect members (all of us) rather than the primary questions. Find the answers to the primary questions through sincere and prayerful study and willingness to change if true - as is officially recommended to investigators. Here's the link:
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/lawrence-e-corbridge/stand-for-ever/
Lisa CroftJuly 10, 2019
God’s laws don’t change, but the application of those laws do. If it were not so, we would all being eating Kosher. It is important to understand the distinction. Those who are steeped in the culture of the Church, instead of its Doctrines will struggle with change.
Jenny SvendsenJuly 10, 2019
Good article, well written! If I may, let me just make this observation...members may leave the church because they are not anchored in faith and knowledge of God our Eternal Father, His son Jesus christ our Saviour, the holy Ghost who reveals truths to us and testifies of Christ. I just read a talk given by Lawrence Corbridge at BYU (look it up on youtube), absolutely amazing, and brings to light why we need to be anchored in the above, that is all that matters.
John H. BurgonJuly 9, 2019
When the wording in the temple ceremony changed along with Pres. Nelson changes in standard policies many wondered how truth could change? Truth has not changed, the doctrine of Christ, faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end are still the same. The purpose of the endowment, to receive the necessary names, signs and token to be able to return to God’s presence, is still the same. Polices will and should change to fit the times we live in. Doctrine will remain but may be added upon.
CynthiaJuly 9, 2019
Thank you for a wonderful, thought provoking article! Yes, God doesn't change,
BUT three thoughts came to mind as I read this article:
1. First, He DOES reveal things line upon line and precept by precept ... and should we suppose that because He "has spoken one word, (he) cannot speak another"?
2. The world changes, and Satan's tactics change - while the principles of the Gospel will never change, we may (probably) need to apply - or speak about - them differently.
3. I sometimes visualize myself - in my understanding of the Gospel - like a 2-year old feeling like having a tantrum when I'm faced with a new instruction / direction (whether from a leader or from the Holy Ghost) ... I've finally learned that the more "quickly I obey", the happier and more blessed I am. Father does know best, and I'm positive Mother does, too.
Richard HillsJuly 9, 2019
Your excellent article is well written and thought out but doesn't deal with an essential question. Why do changes in church teachings, liturgy, policies, and culture sometimes make Latter-day Saints feel uncomfortable? For me, I see myself accepting changes with shallow explanations pretty much mindlessly. I see me rationalizing without end, never admitting that I've ever been wrong, never considering that I might be wrong and never wondering what my priorities should be. And I'm uncomfortable wondering what's next?
Boanerges RubalcavaJuly 9, 2019
I tend to agree almost completely with this article, however, I must emphasize that due to the fact that the author tries hard to be 'inclusive" for women, this makes the article at the end to be very "sexist". I will explain myself:
There are different aspects in our Church that show very clearly that the Church never has been sexist, although many members have been. The author used our Heavenly Mother to try us to change the way we have been treating Her in the past: With a veneration and respect beyond the understanding of the author. First, we seldom refer to Her, because Heavenly Father seldom refers to Her either; nevertheless, we as a Church is likely the only one that has come with this concept of a Heavenly Mother; this shows very clearly that we are different than any other church in the history of the world, and Second the reason we seldom talk about Her is because He, our God wants Her to be sacred and He only revelas Her to few prophets and for special reasons. That's also the way that He is teaching us to treat women in Church, as our sacred companions, the mother of our children and because of this untouchable for the evils of the world. The late Apostle Mervin Ashton once told me when we were discussing feminism: "I never understand why women wanted to be equal since they always have been superior.". This is the way we think of women in the Church, and if some of the members do not understand it, it is very important for articles like this to illuminate them, but be careful do not go all the way to the other side trying to be "politically correct" and change to the manner of the world.
Of course we must embrace change, and in this church I have learned this better than in any other place on earth. However, we must remain with Heavenly Father (obviously this englobes HER, but I do not want and I will not do that, to trivialize HER) in the changes we want to make following the prophet when those changes come, that I believe will be changes in procedures but very likely never in the doctrine.
Neil DevereauxJuly 9, 2019
From an eternal perspective and trying to comprehend a God that is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent means that there are infinite numbers of choices which God can make and in turn reveal to us. Just because God chooses to reveal and put into practice specific aspects of His divine plan for us as to how His kingdom on earth will be administered at a given time, doesn't mean that those are the only choices He has. Any combination of the infinite number of choices which God has at His disposal can be revealed to His prophets so that His church can be administered according to His will and in order to fit the circumstances of an ever changing world. Why should we be surprised when God allows us to know that He has many ways to deal with the volatility of His children. His Plan of Salvation and Happiness has many facets that we may not be aware of at any point in time but they are always at His disposal. When Nephi received a revelation to incorporate two different records for the same period of time in his writings, he didn't know why but God knew He would have to deal with Joseph Smith's bad decision hundreds of years in the future. We are in good hands and God knows what He is doing. Pres. Nelson has told us to prepare for many more aspects of the restoration that have not yet been revealed. God does not change. He just uses different choices from the infinite ones he can select from. I hope we can stay faithful as we see His divine plan unfold.
CarolineJuly 9, 2019
As Sister Joy D. Jones said “If the pull of the world is stronger than the faith and trust we have in the Savior, then the pull of the world will prevail every time “. Since Adam and Eve, literally, this has been the sad story of mankind. Faith in Christ, loving Him with our whole souls, always remembering Him,following Him as He and our prophets have always invited us to do, is the whole purpose of our existence. The “anguish” of President Nelson’s heart is when we decline His invitation. “Retention” has always been a problem. The cycles in the Book of Mormon and throughout history are evidence of how His children are so prone to wander and why He weeps. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the anchor and the answer to every question, to every doubt, and fills us with joy through all the pulls of the world.
Comments | Return to Story
Sam HobbsJuly 15, 2019
If I may humbly make a request to those seeking to invite members to return: please do not pretend that the past was anything other than it was. Along with this newfound transparency, I often hear statements like "that was never doctrine, it was always just policy" or "the church never tried to cover this up," or "that was just the opinion of [X], it was never taught as revelation." For many topics, those statements are simply not true. We can say that X was "just policy" in hindsight, but members (and leaders) at the time would not have treated it as such. We can look backwards and find cherry-pick instances where the church did describe Y in an Improvement Era article in the 70s or an authority mentioned Z in a conference talk in the 80s; but that doesn't change the reality that Y was rarely discussed, and that its near universal omission from most correlated material was obviously intentional. I knew a lot of things from my parents growing up, from BYU publications, or FARMS/FAIR essays here and there. But even then, I've increasingly discovered over time that I was mistaken about more than I could have imagined. Thomas Marsh did not leave the church over milk strippings. Church leaders did not end polygamy in 1890. Some individuals were, in fact, excommunicated for taking stands against the church's racism (and those individuals' beliefs would today align with the church's official stance).
StacyJuly 13, 2019
Fantastic article. Regarding one of the comments, it is complete nonsense to not refer to Heavenly Mother because she's too sacred. Read the Gospel Topics Essay on Heavenly Mother. No prophet, apostle, or General Authority has claimed we shouldn't talk about Her. It was one CES teacher once and thus the urban myth began that She's too sacred to discuss. Can you imagine anyone saying we shouldn't talk about Heavenly Father because He's too sacred. Does anyone actually think that God is not married to His equal? My kids are sometimes rude to me, but I love them and forgive them because I'm their mother. Heavenly Mother is infinitely more loving, knowing and powerful. It's insulting to expect any less from Her. She doesn't need to be protected--She's a GOD! Did you ever consider that maybe the reason we don't know more about Her is because people have just accepted what little revelation there is about Her? Revelation doesn't magically pour out on people's heads. Leaders and members have to ask in order to get answers. Also, most women I know in the church do not want to be put on a pedestal or be told they're superior. They want to be treated with respect and equality. Infantilizing Heavenly Mother and women into beings that need to be protected is exactly what is driving many women from the church.
Andrew ChildsJuly 10, 2019
What Boanerges Rubalcava said. My thoughts exactly.
Jay GoldthwaiteJuly 10, 2019
I also refer to the amazing talk by Lawrence Corbridge at BYU. He was asked by church leaders to study many Anti-Mormon writings, and he was powerfully affected by them. He talks in detail about the experience. But he also explains why he was able to get through all that material without losing his testimony, his faith, his conversion. He teaches a fact that the "anti's" poke at the branches of our doctrine rather than at the heart. Or perhaps better said, at the secondary questions that arise from the history of the church among imperfect members (all of us) rather than the primary questions. Find the answers to the primary questions through sincere and prayerful study and willingness to change if true - as is officially recommended to investigators. Here's the link: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/lawrence-e-corbridge/stand-for-ever/
Lisa CroftJuly 10, 2019
God’s laws don’t change, but the application of those laws do. If it were not so, we would all being eating Kosher. It is important to understand the distinction. Those who are steeped in the culture of the Church, instead of its Doctrines will struggle with change.
Jenny SvendsenJuly 10, 2019
Good article, well written! If I may, let me just make this observation...members may leave the church because they are not anchored in faith and knowledge of God our Eternal Father, His son Jesus christ our Saviour, the holy Ghost who reveals truths to us and testifies of Christ. I just read a talk given by Lawrence Corbridge at BYU (look it up on youtube), absolutely amazing, and brings to light why we need to be anchored in the above, that is all that matters.
John H. BurgonJuly 9, 2019
When the wording in the temple ceremony changed along with Pres. Nelson changes in standard policies many wondered how truth could change? Truth has not changed, the doctrine of Christ, faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end are still the same. The purpose of the endowment, to receive the necessary names, signs and token to be able to return to God’s presence, is still the same. Polices will and should change to fit the times we live in. Doctrine will remain but may be added upon.
CynthiaJuly 9, 2019
Thank you for a wonderful, thought provoking article! Yes, God doesn't change, BUT three thoughts came to mind as I read this article: 1. First, He DOES reveal things line upon line and precept by precept ... and should we suppose that because He "has spoken one word, (he) cannot speak another"? 2. The world changes, and Satan's tactics change - while the principles of the Gospel will never change, we may (probably) need to apply - or speak about - them differently. 3. I sometimes visualize myself - in my understanding of the Gospel - like a 2-year old feeling like having a tantrum when I'm faced with a new instruction / direction (whether from a leader or from the Holy Ghost) ... I've finally learned that the more "quickly I obey", the happier and more blessed I am. Father does know best, and I'm positive Mother does, too.
Richard HillsJuly 9, 2019
Your excellent article is well written and thought out but doesn't deal with an essential question. Why do changes in church teachings, liturgy, policies, and culture sometimes make Latter-day Saints feel uncomfortable? For me, I see myself accepting changes with shallow explanations pretty much mindlessly. I see me rationalizing without end, never admitting that I've ever been wrong, never considering that I might be wrong and never wondering what my priorities should be. And I'm uncomfortable wondering what's next?
Boanerges RubalcavaJuly 9, 2019
I tend to agree almost completely with this article, however, I must emphasize that due to the fact that the author tries hard to be 'inclusive" for women, this makes the article at the end to be very "sexist". I will explain myself: There are different aspects in our Church that show very clearly that the Church never has been sexist, although many members have been. The author used our Heavenly Mother to try us to change the way we have been treating Her in the past: With a veneration and respect beyond the understanding of the author. First, we seldom refer to Her, because Heavenly Father seldom refers to Her either; nevertheless, we as a Church is likely the only one that has come with this concept of a Heavenly Mother; this shows very clearly that we are different than any other church in the history of the world, and Second the reason we seldom talk about Her is because He, our God wants Her to be sacred and He only revelas Her to few prophets and for special reasons. That's also the way that He is teaching us to treat women in Church, as our sacred companions, the mother of our children and because of this untouchable for the evils of the world. The late Apostle Mervin Ashton once told me when we were discussing feminism: "I never understand why women wanted to be equal since they always have been superior.". This is the way we think of women in the Church, and if some of the members do not understand it, it is very important for articles like this to illuminate them, but be careful do not go all the way to the other side trying to be "politically correct" and change to the manner of the world. Of course we must embrace change, and in this church I have learned this better than in any other place on earth. However, we must remain with Heavenly Father (obviously this englobes HER, but I do not want and I will not do that, to trivialize HER) in the changes we want to make following the prophet when those changes come, that I believe will be changes in procedures but very likely never in the doctrine.
Neil DevereauxJuly 9, 2019
From an eternal perspective and trying to comprehend a God that is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent means that there are infinite numbers of choices which God can make and in turn reveal to us. Just because God chooses to reveal and put into practice specific aspects of His divine plan for us as to how His kingdom on earth will be administered at a given time, doesn't mean that those are the only choices He has. Any combination of the infinite number of choices which God has at His disposal can be revealed to His prophets so that His church can be administered according to His will and in order to fit the circumstances of an ever changing world. Why should we be surprised when God allows us to know that He has many ways to deal with the volatility of His children. His Plan of Salvation and Happiness has many facets that we may not be aware of at any point in time but they are always at His disposal. When Nephi received a revelation to incorporate two different records for the same period of time in his writings, he didn't know why but God knew He would have to deal with Joseph Smith's bad decision hundreds of years in the future. We are in good hands and God knows what He is doing. Pres. Nelson has told us to prepare for many more aspects of the restoration that have not yet been revealed. God does not change. He just uses different choices from the infinite ones he can select from. I hope we can stay faithful as we see His divine plan unfold.
CarolineJuly 9, 2019
As Sister Joy D. Jones said “If the pull of the world is stronger than the faith and trust we have in the Savior, then the pull of the world will prevail every time “. Since Adam and Eve, literally, this has been the sad story of mankind. Faith in Christ, loving Him with our whole souls, always remembering Him,following Him as He and our prophets have always invited us to do, is the whole purpose of our existence. The “anguish” of President Nelson’s heart is when we decline His invitation. “Retention” has always been a problem. The cycles in the Book of Mormon and throughout history are evidence of how His children are so prone to wander and why He weeps. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the anchor and the answer to every question, to every doubt, and fills us with joy through all the pulls of the world.
Don HoffmanJuly 9, 2019
Doctrine and policy are very different matters.
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