Maurine
Hello, we’re Scot and Maurine Proctor, and this is Meridian Magazine’s Come Follow Me podcast, where today we’ll be studying Exodus chapter 7 through 13. Some material that you’ll find very familiar to you. This is, of course, the intriguing story of the children of Israel coming out of captivity because God spared His people, and the type that became for all of the covenant people to this very day.
We have a special guest with us today. Yes, we’re so honored to have Daniel Peterson join us, and if I were to list everything he did, it would take most of the podcast, but here are a few highlights. The theory is that he is a retired professor from BYU in Islamic studies and Arabic, but he never stops working.
He founded the Middle Eastern text initiative. He’s studied and taught in Jerusalem and Cairo, and he is the founder of the Interpreter Foundation. He and his wife have produced feature films including Witnesses and Six Days in August. He has created a wonderful documentary series that will be released weekly for the next year called Becoming Brigham.
Scot
Thank you for being with us today, Dan. We are so excited to talk about these chapters together. And as we open in chapters 7 through 13, we are looking at something that’s very familiar to all of us, in part because many who are listening have seen Cecil B. DeMille’s movie, The Ten Commandments. Our family used to watch it every year, and there is just something about that movie that gives us a visual representation of this time period. But first of all, I just want to have you explain one thing as we begin coming to know Pharaoh a little bit. It sounds like the Lord is hardening his heart every time when he goes to receive counsel from Moses, to let my people go, and the Lord hardens his heart again, but there’s something in the text that’s not right there.
Dan
Yes, the Joseph Smith translation says that pharaoh hardened his heart. You don’t blame it on God. It wouldn’t be very fair of God to set Pharaoh up like that, to put him in his position where he can’t do other than he does, and then punish him for it. So it’s Pharaoh who’s hard in his heart. You know, I don’t know if the original text was wrong, that Joseph is correcting I or if Joseph is restoring the original text, but, it’s a very different view that it’s pharaoh who hardens his heart, not God hardening his heart. And I think that’s important to know that people are responsible for their sins.
Maurine
I think it’s interesting that we are about to see 10 plagues unleashed on Egypt, and I wonder if this big show of power was necessary, both for the Egyptians and the Israelites. Could there have been an easier way to do it? But no, I mean, this absolutely decimates Egypt in the long run. And so you wonder about this show of power. Is this to convince both Israel and Egypt?
Dan
I think it is, and it becomes a pivotal moment in the history of Israel. Jews today, even if they’re not believers, still will very commonly observe the Passover seder. have the ritual Passover meal to remember the days when their ancestors were slaves in Egypt. This is the formative event, and quite often, even subsequent prophets will hearken back to, do you not remember the great works that God did for our fathers?
The great work, the greatest of all those works, is delivering them with a mighty hand out of Egypt. So it becomes the formative event, really, for the people of Israel. before that had been a few ragtag families, the people of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Now it’s a substantial people. And this is the thing that makes them what they are.
I think that’s really important, and it also certainly affects the Egyptians. The pharaoh finally not only allows them to leave, but basically says, Get out, now. As some of them say to him, we’ll all be dead men. If you don’t get out, we’re all going to die. So we want you to go. We’re not reluctant. We want you out. The sooner you go, the better off we’ll be.
Scot
I think it’s interesting when Aaron cast down Moses’ staff in this first miracle, or first sign to the pharaoh, and his staff becomes a serpent, that the sorcerers of Egypt can do the same thing. What’s going on here?
Dan
That’s an interesting question. I don’t think we really know. I mean, it’s possible that they’re doing it as, you know, some sort of imitation. A magic trick, the way modern day magicians can do things that just you can’t imagine how they did it. you know, but you know it’s not real.
He’s not really flying. He looks like he’s flying. He didn’t create a rabbit in the hat. But you don’t know how he did it. Maybe that it’s sleight of hand in some way. Or it may be demonic power.
You know, the term for sorcerer or magicians, as it’s often translated, some people want to translate with a more sort of bland term, religious experts. I think that loses a lot, but it does point to something, which is, these weren’t magicians in our sense. These were Egyptian priests. These were the learned religious class of Egypt, and, presumably, there are things they can do, and I wouldn’t be surprised if some of it was putting on a magic show for the masses, or maybe even for Pharaoh himself, you know, to dazzle him with divine power, where it’s really something they’ve put together, maybe, sincerely, maybe not, but, you know, to sort of fool the masses into thinking, Wow, God is on our side, or God’s really in that temple, or God’s really in this box that we’re carrying through the village.
We just don’t know, but in some cases, I ask myself, but why would they want to duplicate the miracle? Like, he can turn water to blood. Well, we can too, and they do it. Why do you want the water to be blood? Why do you want frogs all over your countryside? Well, we can create frogs too. It’s a little puzzling. But eventually, they reach a point where they say, we can’t do that. And then, eventually, the signs are affecting them. The magicians can hardly stand up because of the blains they’re suffering from. Then eventually, they’re pleading with Pharaoh, let them, let them go. This is the finger of God. My magicians can’t do that. The reason they do it, I think, is to tell him, you know, don’t be overawed by Moses. He can do it, so can we. At least it looks like we’re doing the same thing.
Scot
I think as job security.
Dan
When Pharaoh discovers that you may be a magician or a religious expert, or whatever you want to call them, and you can’t do these things, and Moses can, you’re out of a job. Maybe I’ll hire Moses.
Maurine
Moses is up against a real challenge, because Pharaoh believes he, himself, is God, and so when Moses comes in representing the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, basically, this God who will protect and deliver the Hebrews, this is a direct affront to pharaoh’s identity. Then, in addition, it seems like each of those plagues is also a direct affront to an Egyptian deity or another.
Dan
Yes, for instance, turning the Nile into blood. The Nile is the most important thing about Egypt. The ancient Greek historian Herodotus, who visited Egypt, famously said that Egypt was the gift of the Nile, and if you look at a map of Egypt, it looks pretty big, but if you look at a map of the populated parts of Egypt, it’s essentially the Nile Valley, with a little leaf off to the west, and the oasis of Fayum, then a little bit along the Mediterranean coast, but it’s basically the Nile Valley. So, to affect the Nile, which was regarded as a god in Egypt-they actually had a god of the river–and to be able to affect that you’re affecting everything in Egypt.
Even today, the Egyptians have let it be known to people who control the sources of the Nile that if they ever try to interfere with Egypt’s water supply, that will be an act of war because Egypt is wholly dependent upon the Nile. To go right for the jugular vein, in a way, in the first plague, and make the water of the Nile undrinkable, and unusable, this is shock and awe. It really has an impact, but still not enough, because pharaoh is so arrogant.
You know, we’ve talked before about the question of who the pharaoh might be. The fact is, we don’t know. Someone suggested that the pharaoh who raised Moses is Seti I, and then his successors, Ramses II. I don’t know if that’s true, but anyone who’s been to Egypt or has read a little bit about Egypt would know that that really fits Ramses to a T. If there was ever a monumental, I mean, literally monumental, egomaniac in world history, it’s Ramses II, who has huge statues of himself all over the country and he even stole other pharaoh’s statues and put his name on them. He has statues of himself with his wife, for example, and she barely comes up to his knees, because it was really important in this relationship. I
I can imagine a person like that, you know, telling Moses, Okay, so you’re representing the God of these Hebrew shepherds, Abraham, you say, and Isaac and Jacob, who are they? I am the son of the god Ra, the emperor of the skies. This is nothing. I care nothing for you.
When you talk about the sun as being a god, and you get this darkness that is tangible, so tangible, you can feel it for three days, there’s another direct assault upon their theology. This miracle blacks out the sun god Ra. He may still be there. They don’t know. They can’t tell, but his light isn’t reaching Egypt, and that’s a direct challenge, and Pharaoh is his son, supposedly. Rameses means child of Ra, the sun god. If that’s the pharoah in the Moses story, then it’s a direct affront to him and to his father, the divine Ra.
Scot
I have to say, on a personal note, every time we go to the Egyptian Museum in Cairo, we always pay that little extra amount to go into the room that’s full of the pharaohs who are still there, and embalmed, and look pretty good, actually, for a dead person of 3,000 plus years ago. We always look at Ramses II, and, (yes, we don’t know if that was the person, but it certainly points to him in the record) and say, you know, things didn’t work out well for you. Here you are, being seen by hundreds of thousands of people all the time in your state, and you really don’t look that powerful?
Dan
I’ve thought similar things when I’ve gone into that room. I’ve thought, here you were, the most important person in the world, as far as you knew, and maybe, truly, the most important single human in the world and now, 3,500 years later, are all these peasants walking by gawking at you, and there’s no splendor, there’s nothing, you know? That’s what human greatness comes down to. A little humility might have been in order. It’s so true.
Maurine
All of these plagues are happening and they’re affecting the Egyptians, but they’re not affecting the Hebrews. Tell us about that, and how that must have felt to the Egyptians, and how it must have felt to the Hebrews.
Dan
We know that at least some of the Hebrews, a sizable chunk of them, are concentrated probably up in the Nile Delta. That is the region of the north of Egypt, where the Nile River fans out, and then enters the Mediterranean Sea. The treasure cities of Python and Ramses, that it says the Israelites are building are up there, we’re pretty certain, on the eastern side of the delta, on the side toward Israel. That area seems to be spared from all of these plagues that the Lord passes by them. Other parts of Egypt are affected but not that part of the delta, which is really interesting.
The King James Bible puts it this way, thus did the Lord God show that he made a difference between the Egyptians and the Hebrews. He makes a difference. The Egyptians are suffering, and the Israelites are doing just fine. Although, they must have been intermixed with the Egyptians a little bit, because later on, we learned that they borrow things from their Egyptian neighbors. They have Egyptian neighbors. They’re not totally separate. Then later, in the last of the plagues, they still have to mark their dwellings, so that the Angel of Death will pass them by, so it’s not just a matter of a blanket, geographical exemption.
Maurine
What I think is so interesting is that as these plagues get worse and worse. This hail that becomes fire, when it lands, blains and boils on your skin. This is really bad. leading up to the worst one. But as they do, I’m so interested to see Pharaoh’s response because he begins to say, “Okay, I will let you go”, and then he changes his mind. As soon as the plague is taken away, he immediately backpedals. In some ways, that reminds me of all of us, as human beings. You know the old story about the man who fell over the cliff, and he was praying with all his heart that he would be saved, and then his coat caught on a branch, and he said, “Never mind, Lord, I don’t need you after all.”
Pharaoh can’t even keep his word. He is so used to not having to make any concessions to anyone of any kind that, no matter what he says, it’s really not trustworthy until, well, I was going to say, until the very end, but even then, his word is not trustworthy.
Dan
You know what, we do the same thing in similar ways, maybe equal in opposite ways. When we’re in real trouble, we pray for divine help, and then when things get better, we sort of slip back into complacency, and don’t pray as much, or as fervently. But, boy, when there’s a real difficulty, then we’re on our knees, urgently pleading with the Lord.
When a plague passes, Pharaoh may think, well, okay, that’s the worst of it. We survived. It’s probably all he’s going to do and then comes another one. Eventually, he realized this isn’t going to end until they’re gone. Even then, though, he doesn’t want to let them go. It’s a great blow to have your slaves successfully rebel. Consider the famous slave revolt of Spartacus against the Romans. What they did to the slaves? They crucified them along the Appian Way. and made a spectacle of them because it just wouldn’t do to have slaves successfully rebelling. If one group does that, others may get ideas. But this time, they got away.
Scot
Back to Cecil B. DeMille–the non-scriptural text–our favorite line, from that movie, by far, is when it’s finally acknowledged, “Moses’ God is God.” That leads us to a question what is it in us as children of our Heavenly Father, that we would ever resist him? I don’t understand why we would ever resist God.
Dan
Yeah, it’s funny because most of us recognize that if we live the rules, if we live the commandments, our lives actually go better. There are all sorts of studies. This is actual science that indicate that people with religious affiliations, who live by certain standards, do better in life. We know that people who donate to charity and serve are happier. We all know it, but we don’t really believe it and we will still say, “Well, yeah, yI grant the idea that being faithful to God, and serving, and giving, and so on would make me happier, but what I really want is a bigger boat. What I really want is a bigger house. I’ve got to get a job that pays me more. Not, you know, understanding with our minds, but not with our hearts, that beyond a certain point, those things don’t actually tend to make you happier. You know, you have to have a roof over your head and food and clothing, but beyond that, devoting your life to a false god of prosperity or power, whatever it is you’re going after, just isn’t going to make you happier, but we just don’t really believe these things.
President Kimball gave a talk once on the false gods we worship, and they’re innumerable false gods that we worship. I think a good way of describing or defining what a person’s God is, is what is it that really is most important to him or to her? If we analyze ourselves, we’ll find that at least at some points in our lives, it hasn’t necessarily been the God of Israel. It’s been something else. that we want, what we really care about.
Maurine
It seems interesting to me, because one of the central questions in the Old Testament, is who is God? Everyone’s claiming, “We have a God”. “Our God is God”. “This God is God.” Here in this story, God is making it very clear who is God. And I think that’s a interesting thing that becomes a part of the heritage of Israel, and maybe a necessary part in Israel, as they will be constantly tempted and challenged and fall to the idea that there is another god.
Dan
It’s amazing to watch the history of even Exodus alone. where the Israelites are constantly falling. This is true throughout much of Israelite history until maybe. It takes a long time.
We believe that for most of us today, idolatry isn’t really an option. I’m not likely to put a little metal statue in the corner of my room and bow down to it much. That’s not in the air today. But I might have another kind of idol, and I have to be constantly watching. Do I have any idols? Do I need to eliminate them from my life?
I really like this definition of scripture or the Bible, I think from Mark Twain or probably Ambrose Bierce, who would find the Bible as a book of scripture admirably suited to the needs of my neighbor. I think we need to be careful when we read this and say, “Oh, look, stupid idolaters, how could they have been such fools?” That’s not the important lesson to draw from this. We should be asking ourselves the question of the Last Supper. “Lord, is it I? Am I doing this? In what way might I be doing this? Can I learn from this?”
The Lord didn’t give us these scriptures so we could laugh at the stupid Israelites that are being led by Moses, or a dumb Laman and Lemuel. He’s giving it to us so we can learn not to be like them. That’s so true.
Scot
I want to talk about this: Pesach or the Passover, because this becomes a critical moment in the children of Israel leaving Egypt, and it’s in their DNA to this day. Pesach is just so important to them. Let’s go through this as far as the symbolism of the atonement goes what were they commanded to do, and and then, you know, how did this become the birth of the nation of Israel?
Dan
I think the Christian symbolism of the Passover is almost embarrassingly obvious. So much so that I’ve led several Passover seders, and I’ve attended a number of others, and I wouldn’t be upset if Latter-day Saints, not as a commandment, but if some of us did this from time to time, I think it’s a good moment to teach children the symbolism of the Passover, as we understand it, not as Jews understand it. Some of the symbolism is pretty obvious.
You have the curse upon the Egyptians, that the first-born male child is going to die, from Pharaoh on down. This is not only in their families, but among their livestock. So the Israelites are commanded to observe the Passover. What do they do? They sacrifice a lamb, but it has to be the firstborn male lamb, unblemished. Now, if that isn’t an obvious reference to Christ, I don’t know what it would be. Christ was the firstborn, he was unblemished. This is a really important part of the atonement, that he is literally without sin. He’s an unblemished lamb and so he is sacrificed.
But then, what would that mean to us if we didn’t apply the blood in a way? It’s not a phrase that we use very often, but it’s really relevant. In the initial Passover, what they’re supposed to do is take the blood and spread it on the doorposts and the lintel, the crossbeam of their doors, in their little individual mud dwellings. This is to tell the Angel of Death, or the Lord himself, to pass by, or to pass over that house, and spare the inhabitants, including the firstborn who’s there. The idea of applying the blood of Christ to ourselves is centrally important to accepting the atonement.
It’s not enough that Christ has atoned for our sins. We have to accept that atonement. If we don’t, it’s as if it didn’t happen for us. So that’s putting the, putting the blood on the, on the door and lintel of your house. telling the Lord, “Yes, I accept the atonement. I accept the sacrifice of your unblemished son.”
Then there are other aspects of the thing that have to do with their rapid removal from Egypt. You have the unleavened bread, the ideas that they don’t have time for bread to rise, right? Their flight is going to be in haste. They’re supposed to eat it in the old days with their walking staff and their shoes on, and this is to indicate they’re ready to go, to bolt at a moment’s notice. There are things like, um, you know, dipping, eating the bitter herbs to remind themselves what they came from, the bitterness of captivity.
But all of this fits, I think, a Christian context really well. We are captive to sin until the atonement frees us from it. We would be the slaves of the devil if the atonement didn’t free us from captivity. It’s by that shed blood of Christ, and the atonement that he makes for our sins, that we are free, because he’s an unblemished lamb. I think the similarities should be pretty obvious to a lot of Latter-day Saints. Something to reflect on.
In a way, too, the sacrament that we do still today is a very abbreviated form, a descendant of the Passover. With the wine, originally, or the water now, and the bread representing the body of Christ, the initial sacrament service was a Passover meal, the Last Supper. This has enormous ramifications, and not just for Jews, but for Latter-day Saints as well.
Maurine
I’ve always thought it was interesting and ironic that when Jesus is put on trial by the Sanhedrin, and then they take him next to the Romans to be tried, that they won’t enter Pilate’s house, because they’re afraid that it will have leaven in it. They are following the Passover law, but they don’t recognize the point of the Passover, which is right with them. They’re taking Christ to be judged and ultimately crucified. What an ironic moment that is, that they have kept Passover all these centuries, and yet they don’t recognize Christ when he is right there with them.
Dan
Jews are sometimes criticized for legalism. The rabbis, the Pharisees, certainly were legalistic. It’s sometimes justified, sometimes maybe not so much, but the idea that you go in to deliver an innocent man to a brutal, violent death, but you’re worried about whether there’s leaven in the house is getting moral priorities just a little bit skewed, I think. I
I’m taken by the fact that in our dispensation, the Lord gives as the last promise in the Word of Wisdom these words, “and I, the Lord, give unto them a promise that the destroying angel shall pass by them as the children of Israel and not slay them.” Here’s this health code that we’re given today, and we’re reminded of our Hebrew roots. that we’re right back to, to this time when the angel of death passed over them. So, you know, this Passover echoes.
In fact, it’s kind of interesting that the founding of America is being in some way connected with this, so much so that Benjamin Franklin proposed as the first seal of the United States the image with the pillar of fire going ahead of the children of Israel. Because he thought that’s what the people of the United States were, people who’d gone out of captivity in Europe to come to freedom in the Promised Land. It wasn’t accepted. This image has been used constantly. Black spirituals in the South were always singing about Moses going down to Egypt way and saying, “Let my people go.” The image of liberation, salvation, earthly liberation, and salvation, is so rich in this story that’s been used in multiple cultures and for understandable reasons.
Scot
I think is so interesting in that last meeting with Pharaoh, that he basically says, as we mentioned earlier, I don’t want to see your face again, Moses. I mean, Moses has been nothing but trouble to Pharaoh. And Moses says, You won’t.
Dan
I think of it too. There’s a human dimension to this that I think is brought out in Cecil B. DeMille’s movie, but, these are people who are probably raised together. They’d known each other. Moses had grown up at court. Pharaoh wasn’t a stranger to him. So the rift is utter and absolute. “I don’t ever want to see your face again.” “Don’t worry; you won’t. It’s a terrible personal tragedy, in its small way, among all the other things that are going on.
Maurine
I’m fascinated that the children of Israel were directed to go to their neighbors, and to ask for their gold, and their silver, and their precious things, and the Lord softened the hearts of their neighbors, and they gave them away. Then they basically are spoiling Egypt. That’s just a fascinating thing for this group, who have been slaves. They’re all spoiling Egypt now as they leave.
Dan
Last week we talked about the fact that the Egyptians are not going to put this on the records in their temples and all over their murals, because this was pretty embarrassing. This is a major defeat for an arrogant pharaoh, and for a people who didn’t like the idea of slaves successfully getting away with a revolt. It’s kind of funny here to see the Lord telling his people to essentially steal from the Egyptians, but I think the idea would be, they’ve exploited you for the better part of half a millennium, and so you’re not going to go out as slaves with nothing. You should take something from them, because a lot of that is the product of your labor. Their economy is strong because you are working for it and so, it’s only fair that you take a little bit of that. So they do.
Maurine
So, it’s so interesting as they leave, the Lord will be obviously and visibly with them, because there’ll be a pillar by night and a shadow by day, as we sing in the song, “How Firm a Foundation. But that is really obvious. And I think it’s interesting that a shadow by day as you’re crossing the Sinai desert would be so important. Scot and I have spent a lot of time even camping in the desert and when that sun comes up, it’s like an enemy. It’s so terribly terribly hot, and you can hardly bear the heat. So if you have sort of a shadow by day, that’s the indication that you were being watched over. And, of course, the pillar by night is the same thing, protecting you from all the things that could be in the wilderness. So I love it, because, again, it seems like part of the covenant promise. It is the same kind of thing that the Lord said to Jacob. I will go with you. The Lord says, “I will be your God and you will be my people.”
Dan
This is seen again in their posterity. They had this very clear indication that God is with them. One of the names that’s given to Jesus in scripture is Emmanuel, which means God with us. God is with us. That’s one of the great promises made to the covenant people is that God is with you. You may not always see him as clearly as a pillar of fire, or of smoke, but he is with you and so you can depend on him, and he’s trying to teach that to the Israelites. In the future of Israel, he won’t be there so obviously. But if they remember this story, they’ll know that he is with them, that there was a time when he was obviously with them in a visible unmistakable way and that will reinforce the lesson that they’ll remember forever.
Maurine
We don’t have a pillar by night and a shadow by day. But he is with us just the same, and sometimes it seems like it would be a lot easier if we could see this visible thing that reminds us that God is with us. There’s a lot more required when you have to rely on your memory and your experiences, and the good feelings that you have when you do certain things. But the Lord is with us just as clearly as he was with those covenant children as they crossed that great wilderness to the Promised Land.
Dan
Yeah, yeah. That’s, I think, one of the most important lessons to learn in the gospel is that God is with us, and that, in the end, everything will be okay. It may not be in the short term, sometimes, but in the long term, everything will be okay.
Scot
This is Scot and Maurine Proctor. We’ve been here with our guest, Dr. Daniel Peterson. We’re so grateful for your time with us. Next week, we’ll be studying Exodus chapters 14 through 17, called “Stand Still, and See the Salvation of the Lord”. Thanks to Jenny Oaks Baker for the music, which accompanies this podcast, and as always, we’re grateful to Michaela, Proctor Hutchins, for producing this show. Have a great week, and see you next time.
“Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing” Performed by Jenny Oaks Baker. Used with permission © 2003 Shadow Mountain Records
