Regarding LDS artists painting their interpretations of how the BOM was translated, and erring because they did not know the true history - I have heard that all Church artwork is approved by the leaders (quorum of the twelve?)...is that the case, and if so, why would they not correct the error? Why have Church artwork that told an inaccurate story?
DallasAugust 9, 2015
regarding the plates needed for the purpose for the 11 witnesses. it's a good thought, however, people trusting these witnesses should investigate how they witnesses saw the plates with their 'spiritual eyes' and not their 'natural eyes.' so, the question is still valid: why the need for the plates if 1) Joseph never needed them to translate the BoM and 2) the witnesses didn't need them as they saw the plates in vision only.
AleceAugust 9, 2015
I've thought for years that it was fascinating that Joseph (and his extended family) were interested in divination, etc. If you think about it, if you were the Lord and were looking for someone to be your Prophet, who would have to receive revelation from you and then be willing to act upon it, would you select someone who could suspend his "rational disbelief" and believe in such things as revelations, etc., or would you select someone who thought all of that was just rubbish. I know whom I would select! (Also, I've known about this stone for years, just as I've known about most of the things people are just "now" learning about on the net. The information was available for those who were interested in obtaining it for many, many years, so to say that the Church and the Brethren hid it from the membership of the Church is disingenuous, at the very least!)
GaryAugust 7, 2015
Brady, in my opinion the plates were absolutely necessary for the 11 witnesses (eight witnesses who saw and handled and the three special witnesses who saw an angel bring the plate to them) to testify of their veracity. Can you imagine trying to get 11 people together to agree on anything--much less something so fantastic if they weren't true? Very improbable if not impossible. I testify of the book's truth. I have felt the witness of the Holy Ghost many times. I ask that you ask our Heavenly Father yourself. He will testify these things to you too. It is wonderful to know.
Steve ReedAugust 7, 2015
@Brady, your question about the necessity of the plates is a good one. Why spend all that time preserving and creating them if they didn't seem that necessary to the translation process.
Have you considered that the plates may not have been created just for the translation? That there may be a future use for them as there is still a portion that is sealed and is promised to come to future generations?
Another point relates to the plates as being a sign in and of themselves. Removing them from the earth on Rosh Hashanah was a sign that Jesus said in 3rd Nephi was the beginning of his seeking a second time to recover his people and fulfil his covenant with the fathers.
The translation process was likely just one part of a process that the plates and other records will play in the unfolding of the final events of the last days. They may also be keep throughout eternity as a testament of God's dealings with his people.
I think we limit ourselves by thinking that the plates as well as the Nephite interpreters were created just for one single event. Even if God blessed Joseph to translate in the traditional ways of men by understanding the writing and rewording it in modern language, that would still limit the plates purposes to just a small moment in time, when I think there is a future that they will still play a part in.
Just some thoughts.
Another opinionAugust 7, 2015
Good point, Brady. Fortunately, Moroni didn't have to leave New York between the time his father gave him the record and he buried it.
BradyAugust 6, 2015
One question: why did the Nephite prophets spend so much time caring for the plates if they were not necessary for "translation". I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of Moroni moving the plates hundreds, if not thousands of miles for no apparent reason.
DonAugust 6, 2015
Some of the most compelling evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon surrounds the translation process. I've never had anyone adequately answer how Joseph could have made up the Book of Mormon - or plagiarized it - if he was looking into a hat much of the time. Whatever it was that was happening in that hat, it had to be something remarkable. Critics can't have it both ways.
Tom JohnsonAugust 6, 2015
Well summarized, Mike (by the way I will see you today at the FAIR Conference). I have just finished reading detailed accounts in John Welch's book Opening the Heavens of the six people who assisted Joseph Smith as his scribes when the Book of Mormon was translated. When the angel showed Joseph where the plates were buried and permitted him to take them to be translated after four years of instruction, there were two stones called the Urim and Thummim buried with the plates. There are six references to the Urim and Thummim in the Old Testament. It was a device worn by the Jewish High Priest by which he received revelation from God. According to two accounts, Joseph used the Urim and Thummim to translate the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon and to receive 10 revelations recorded in the Doctrine & Covenants, but when Martin Harris lost those pages, Joseph was required to return the Urim and Thummim to the angel. From then on, he used this seer stone as an aid to obtaining revelation, but as David Whitmer stated, the translation of the plates came to Joseph Smith by revelation and he didn't actually need the seers tone. As proof that was true, shortly after the Book of Mormon was translated, Joseph gave the seer stone to Oliver Cowdery and never used it again, although Joseph continued to receive nearly 100 revelations recorded in the Doctrine & Covenants, made revisions to the Bible by revelation, wrote the entire Book of Moses by revelation, and translated the Book of Abraham by revelation. The six scribes who were present and wrote down the things that Joseph translated testified that Joseph saw the translation in English sentences and dictated it to the scribes; they would write it down. If the way they heard it and wrote it was correct, the sentence would disappear and the next sentence would appear. In this way, Joseph dictated the entire book of 500 pages in 63 working days without the aid of any notes. and he never reviewed or revised the manuscript. This was a miracle to the six scribes because Joseph was an uneducated man and his wife Emma Smith said that he could not have composed even a cogent letter with his own skills. Quoting Emma: "My belief is that the Book of Mormon is of divine authenticity--I have not the slightest doubt of it. I am satisfied that no man could have dictated the writing of the manuscript unless he was inspired; for, when acting as his scribe, your father would dictate to me hour after hour; and when returning after meals, or after interruptions, he would at once begin where he had left off, without either seeing the manuscript or having any portion of it read to him. This was a usual thing for him to do. It would have been improbable that a learned man could do this; and, of one so ignorant and unlearned as he was, it was simply impossible." Other scribes confirmed Emma's statements. To me, the seer stone is of historical interest, but is insignificant compared to the contents of the Book of Mormon and the revelations in the Doctrine & Covenants.
Comments | Return to Story
DWSeptember 8, 2015
Regarding LDS artists painting their interpretations of how the BOM was translated, and erring because they did not know the true history - I have heard that all Church artwork is approved by the leaders (quorum of the twelve?)...is that the case, and if so, why would they not correct the error? Why have Church artwork that told an inaccurate story?
DallasAugust 9, 2015
regarding the plates needed for the purpose for the 11 witnesses. it's a good thought, however, people trusting these witnesses should investigate how they witnesses saw the plates with their 'spiritual eyes' and not their 'natural eyes.' so, the question is still valid: why the need for the plates if 1) Joseph never needed them to translate the BoM and 2) the witnesses didn't need them as they saw the plates in vision only.
AleceAugust 9, 2015
I've thought for years that it was fascinating that Joseph (and his extended family) were interested in divination, etc. If you think about it, if you were the Lord and were looking for someone to be your Prophet, who would have to receive revelation from you and then be willing to act upon it, would you select someone who could suspend his "rational disbelief" and believe in such things as revelations, etc., or would you select someone who thought all of that was just rubbish. I know whom I would select! (Also, I've known about this stone for years, just as I've known about most of the things people are just "now" learning about on the net. The information was available for those who were interested in obtaining it for many, many years, so to say that the Church and the Brethren hid it from the membership of the Church is disingenuous, at the very least!)
GaryAugust 7, 2015
Brady, in my opinion the plates were absolutely necessary for the 11 witnesses (eight witnesses who saw and handled and the three special witnesses who saw an angel bring the plate to them) to testify of their veracity. Can you imagine trying to get 11 people together to agree on anything--much less something so fantastic if they weren't true? Very improbable if not impossible. I testify of the book's truth. I have felt the witness of the Holy Ghost many times. I ask that you ask our Heavenly Father yourself. He will testify these things to you too. It is wonderful to know.
Steve ReedAugust 7, 2015
@Brady, your question about the necessity of the plates is a good one. Why spend all that time preserving and creating them if they didn't seem that necessary to the translation process. Have you considered that the plates may not have been created just for the translation? That there may be a future use for them as there is still a portion that is sealed and is promised to come to future generations? Another point relates to the plates as being a sign in and of themselves. Removing them from the earth on Rosh Hashanah was a sign that Jesus said in 3rd Nephi was the beginning of his seeking a second time to recover his people and fulfil his covenant with the fathers. The translation process was likely just one part of a process that the plates and other records will play in the unfolding of the final events of the last days. They may also be keep throughout eternity as a testament of God's dealings with his people. I think we limit ourselves by thinking that the plates as well as the Nephite interpreters were created just for one single event. Even if God blessed Joseph to translate in the traditional ways of men by understanding the writing and rewording it in modern language, that would still limit the plates purposes to just a small moment in time, when I think there is a future that they will still play a part in. Just some thoughts.
Another opinionAugust 7, 2015
Good point, Brady. Fortunately, Moroni didn't have to leave New York between the time his father gave him the record and he buried it.
BradyAugust 6, 2015
One question: why did the Nephite prophets spend so much time caring for the plates if they were not necessary for "translation". I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of Moroni moving the plates hundreds, if not thousands of miles for no apparent reason.
DonAugust 6, 2015
Some of the most compelling evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon surrounds the translation process. I've never had anyone adequately answer how Joseph could have made up the Book of Mormon - or plagiarized it - if he was looking into a hat much of the time. Whatever it was that was happening in that hat, it had to be something remarkable. Critics can't have it both ways.
Tom JohnsonAugust 6, 2015
Well summarized, Mike (by the way I will see you today at the FAIR Conference). I have just finished reading detailed accounts in John Welch's book Opening the Heavens of the six people who assisted Joseph Smith as his scribes when the Book of Mormon was translated. When the angel showed Joseph where the plates were buried and permitted him to take them to be translated after four years of instruction, there were two stones called the Urim and Thummim buried with the plates. There are six references to the Urim and Thummim in the Old Testament. It was a device worn by the Jewish High Priest by which he received revelation from God. According to two accounts, Joseph used the Urim and Thummim to translate the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon and to receive 10 revelations recorded in the Doctrine & Covenants, but when Martin Harris lost those pages, Joseph was required to return the Urim and Thummim to the angel. From then on, he used this seer stone as an aid to obtaining revelation, but as David Whitmer stated, the translation of the plates came to Joseph Smith by revelation and he didn't actually need the seers tone. As proof that was true, shortly after the Book of Mormon was translated, Joseph gave the seer stone to Oliver Cowdery and never used it again, although Joseph continued to receive nearly 100 revelations recorded in the Doctrine & Covenants, made revisions to the Bible by revelation, wrote the entire Book of Moses by revelation, and translated the Book of Abraham by revelation. The six scribes who were present and wrote down the things that Joseph translated testified that Joseph saw the translation in English sentences and dictated it to the scribes; they would write it down. If the way they heard it and wrote it was correct, the sentence would disappear and the next sentence would appear. In this way, Joseph dictated the entire book of 500 pages in 63 working days without the aid of any notes. and he never reviewed or revised the manuscript. This was a miracle to the six scribes because Joseph was an uneducated man and his wife Emma Smith said that he could not have composed even a cogent letter with his own skills. Quoting Emma: "My belief is that the Book of Mormon is of divine authenticity--I have not the slightest doubt of it. I am satisfied that no man could have dictated the writing of the manuscript unless he was inspired; for, when acting as his scribe, your father would dictate to me hour after hour; and when returning after meals, or after interruptions, he would at once begin where he had left off, without either seeing the manuscript or having any portion of it read to him. This was a usual thing for him to do. It would have been improbable that a learned man could do this; and, of one so ignorant and unlearned as he was, it was simply impossible." Other scribes confirmed Emma's statements. To me, the seer stone is of historical interest, but is insignificant compared to the contents of the Book of Mormon and the revelations in the Doctrine & Covenants.
ADD A COMMENT