Response to Chuck Whicker: Joseph Smith said the Lord, not the church members, would be the one to remove an erring President of the Church. The Lord says (D&C 21:5) that we are to receive the prophet's word "as if from my own mouth, in all patience and faith." It's not our job to criticize the prophet, it's our job to follow him. This is really hard for people who are afraid we'll be led astray if we follow like sheep. The Lord has never demanded continual blind obedience, but he has often required faith in doing things we don't yet understand. YES, absolutely we must ask the Lord for confirmation as we follow the prophet, especially as we have concerns or doubts. We are promised that as we obey we will know the doctrine, whether it be of God or whether the prophet is speaking of himself. But Joseph Smith was clear: If the prophet is in error, the Lord will correct him or remove him. Follow the prophet, and the Lord will take care of His Church. It is His, after all, and he directs it, watching over it continually.
One person commented by saying "let's not steady the ark, folks." He was implying that it's not our job, but belongs to the church leadership to make the decision. This is actually backwards from the truth of what it means to "steady the ark." The man who reached for the ark, to steady it, did so with all good intent, of course, but also did so in a manner that was against a particular law of the covenant he had embraced. Touching the ark was forbidden to any who was not appointed.
However, when it comes to accepting or rejecting homosexuality in the ranks, every member of the church has equal authority to warn against its acceptance: D&C 88:81: "it behooveth every man who hat been warned to warn his neighbor." Decisions and policies that BREAK the covenant, or standard that is appointed for this dispensation are condemned by the Lord - even if, and especially if, it is the First Presidency who does it. There are no guarantees against churchwide apostasy through unrighteous decisions - a fact that the leadership taught plainly during Brigham's and Joseph's day. The scriptural record, of course, demonstrates that very pattern, over and over again. D&C 107: around verse 84 (?) gives the Lord's appointed procedure for excommunicating a president of the church "should he become a transgressor." Thus, the membership who support an errant decision from the highest leadership will have no excuse: : "and thus, none shall be excused..." D&C 84:54-57 tells of the "whole church" being "under condemnation" for having failed to establish the principles of Zion. Many other verses could be quoted, warnings straight out of the D&C, not to mention the many that exist in the Journal of Discourses.
The BOY Scouts recognize that at 12 all boys are asexual - or in their terms : Sex is yuck!
There is real and potential danger to the organization in law suits about abuse by leaders (of both sexes). The issue comes in that the frequency of such suits is over whelmingly one sided (1:380 or so).
Yes, this changes by the time they are rovers. The program isn't about sex, it is about leadership, and developing leaders. While I have opinions about the relative utility of that, that leaders are needed can not be argued, and so the program fulfills one of societies needs, better than school systems do (and they should be more oriented toward technical skills, not leadership).
The BOY Scouts recognize that at 12 all boys are asexual - or in their terms : Sex is yuck!
It would be better for all boys to be taught by the Boy Scout rather than some be left in the cold with no examples of good righteous men. We want all of them to be good citizens and law abiding.
While I agree that you can't compromise with Satan and win, the way the Church has approached the issue is more like the way the Master dealt with the woman taken in adultery. The Mosaic law condemned her to death. The Savior could have been unbending and allowed the law to fall upon her. However, in an effort to save her (and others) from Satan, he took a more merciful approach.
He did not forgive her sins right then and there as He had with others. Rather, He commanded her to sin no more and let her go.
I have often been taught in church to love the sinner and hate the sin. This move extends love to those who are being tempted towards sin while those who revel in the same sin are kept out.
It's a fine line that I hadn't considered before. I used to think it had to be all or nothing as well. I only hope that the execution of whatever policy gets approved ends up working out.
I am concerned that some are reacting on emotion and not fact or knowledge of the issues. From conversations I have participated in with national scout leaders, the BSA has found itself in a position to need to modify a long-standing policy. The current policy to ban homosexuals from participating in scouting is supported by a court sustained argument that scouts cannot do their "duty to god" if they are homosexual. Today, many churches that sponsor scouting accept the homosexual lifestyle and have clergy who have adopted that lifestyle. They say their members can be homosexual and do their "duty to god." Thus, a lawsuit in today's environment could possibly overturn the standing ruling. To protect itself, the BSA is looking to evolve its policy to one that would be legally defensible. Should the BSA lose a lawsuit on this issue, then the government could dictate the policies the BSA would have to follow. That would be very undesirable. I think the proposed policy is similar to LDS Church statements that same sex attraction is not a sin. It is sex outside marriage (whether heterosexual or homosexual) that is a sin. Sustaining the principle of chastity which is part of the proposed policy is a key issue. In my opinion, the values of scouting are one of its defining strengths and a large part of the reason why even the Church seems to have voiced its recognition of a policy that we can endorse in these times that try men's hearts. As in the past, the BSA will support the Church in using scouting in ways that are fully consistent with Church doctrine and practices. As long as Church leaders feel this is the case, we have the ability to intelligently and prayerfully sustain them in something that they have thought out and prayerfully considered.
I believe they are taking the stand the Church has to take...there is no sin to have same gender attraction for a boy of scout age, the sin is in acting up on the attraction. Since all boyscouts are to be morally straight and clean regardless of their sexuality there should be no issue with any boy to join Boy Scouts...Jesus Christ taught to love everyone, no matter who they are...I also agree to the stand the Church takes that scouting is for the youth not for the adults.
The only problem with all of this is that WE are doing the compromising, not the other side. When you compromise with the devil you will lose every time. I am saddened to see Satan slowly but surely winning more souls in these last days.
Lynn Nicholes, It would be because adults would be/are in teaching positions, whereas boys are not and would also be able to see the good examples of the other boys, who hopefully uphold the moral standards of the Boy Scouts. As a parent, I would be sure to talk to my sons about the moral issue to be sure they understand what the Lord has taught and expects before just sending them off.
It is so sad to follow what is happening to the moral values in organizations/churches throughout our Country and it appears the organizations/churches a person would think should be and would be holding fast to their solid moral values throughout the years are the first to let down their supporters/believers. The BSA is already on that broad road leading to destruction and judgment; it appears now the Mormon Church is taking the same position in following. There is something to be said and recognized when organizations/churches cannot come out in full and bold force and take an open and transparent stand on their moral values positions; I feel it is a total lack of fortitude!!! There should be grave concerns for the future of our Country based on this broad road to destruction and judgment so many are on.
Let's just take sex altogether out of scouting. This topic has no place in this program. Scouting is about boys not about what men are doing in their private lives. I love scouting and hate to see it become a pawn in someone's agenda .
Couple this with the Lord's revelation on same-sex attractions.
It's the practice that cannot be tolerated not the attraction or the temptation.
" Openly gay" would be the practice, or at least advocating, "sexual relations outside marriage between a man and a woman"
The church standard is total chastity for single people and total fidelity for married people. This applies whether people are scouts or nor - and also whether they are gay or not. That is why the church does not need to take sides in this decision by the scouts.
The Homosexual lobby is never going to agree to anything other than the complete surrender of the Boy Scout organization. The Homosexual Lobby wants the whole enchilada, or they will work to destroy Scouting.
This is one of the big problems with left wing organizations. They want to ruin everything that is traditionally good in America's history.
Lynne N. seems not to understand that parents and leaders are concerned about (gay)leaders that may look upon the young people as scouts but as sexual targets. That is the problem that no one seems to want to say.
The best place to find the full statement/proposal on BSA membership is on the BSA web page: https://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/MembershipStandards/Resolution/Resolution.aspx
Let's not try to steady to ark folks. This is what we need to know: "Scouting exists to serve and benefit youth rather than Scout leaders, a single standard of moral purity for youth in the program, and a renewed emphasis for Scouts to honor their duty to God." and " The proposed resolution also reinforces that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting."
While I'm happy to see that gay youth will be accepted into the BSA program if this proposal is adopted, I'm sad to see that a major myth is being perpetuated against gay adults.
The myth that is still being perpetuated using the reasoning of teaching boys and young men to remain chaste and morally straight is that homosexuals of any gender are pedophiles. This is simply not true. As I recall from my training as an advocate for a domestic violence and sexual assault agency in my area, a study conducted by the FBI of known, convicted pedophiles show that well over 95% of pedophiles identify as being heterosexual, or "straight", not gay.
As I've learned more about the gay community, this particular myth has been perpetuated by heterosexual people since at least the 1950's. My point is that the vast majority of gay people are NOT pedophiles, and do not desire, much less molest children.
Again, I'm happy to see that gay young people may be allowed to be in the BSA program without having to remain "closeted" about being gay, or having gay feelings. In other words, they don't have to pretend to be what they feel that they are not while learning to remain chaste.
Seeing how most youth at that age are still trying to sort their lives and feelings out, this makes good sense. Most adult leaders and volunteers, however, have become cemented in their orientation on this issue. I would like to know, however, what gay scouting activists define as "morally straight" in the scout oath.
"No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone."
BSA has never denied membership to any boys based on this before. And why should they? Boys are still children who are still learning the difference between right and wrong. We should give them the opportunity to be influenced for good by good orgranizations who can teach them these things. Adult leaders are a different story because they are admired by the boys and are supposed to be examples to the boys.
The proposal.delineates that membership will be open to all boys regardless of orientation, will ban gay adult leaders, and will promote the value of chastity for all scouts, as always.
SALT LAKE CITY (AP)
so amazed to see the Church not taking a strong stand about this isssue. Why is it ok for a gay boy scout to be in the troop, but not a guy leader? This baffles me!
Written like representatives of Christ. Peace.
This is what I found.
The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) is proposing that gay scouts be allowed to join its ranks. However, the century-old organization would still ban adult staff and volunteers who are openly homosexual. The Wall Street Journal reports:
"The proposal, which follows a three-month review of the youth organization's membership policies, sets up a battle for May 22, when some 1,400 Scout leaders at an annual meeting will vote on the recommendation."
According to the WSJ, the BSA would embrace a sort of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy for gay leaders:
"The Scouts said that while they wouldn't 'proactively inquire about sexual orientation,' they wouldn't grant paid or volunteer roles to adults 'who are open or avowed homosexuals.'"
The BSA released a statement regarding the proposal, which read in part:
"While perspectives and opinions vary significantly, parents, adults in the Scouting community, and teens alike tend to agree that youth should not be denied the benefits of Scouting. ... The proposed resolution also reinforces that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting."
After affirming that "America needs Scouting," the statement also declares that BSA voting members will take action on the resolution at next month's annual meeting.
But this apparent compromise isn't winning overwhelming support from either side of the debate. Gay activists are demanding the Scouts "end discrimination ... now." But supporters of the ban want the BSA to remain true to their oath to be "morally straight."
Good people doing good things!
what is the proposed resolution? I can't seem to find it as I search the web
We currently have scouts holding off registering for scout camp pending the results of this decision. If the scouts allow the change they will not be attending scout camp and may possibly leave the program.
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