We are delighted to be with you again this week and begin a discussion around your table of Section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants. This section is so long and so deep it even took the prophet Joseph three different sessions on three different days to have it recorded.
Maurine, I used to look forward to the tail end of our Thanksgiving and Christmas feasts in Missouri because my Dad, a brilliant and world-renowned geologist and geological engineer, and Darrell Ownby, part of our family and a world-class ceramic engineer, and Nord Gale, a celebrated, favorite professor and brilliant microbiologist and Harold Romero, also a brilliant physicist, would stay at the table and discuss deep gospel questions. Many times, the conversations would go way over my head, as they talked about creation, celestial worlds, spirit elements, atomic elements and the qualities of light—but I tried to follow along as best I could. Hey, I was only 12 years old! But this was the beginning of my yearning, thirst and hunger for knowledge. I could not get enough of it. These discussions around the table were amazing. And then I was introduced to Section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants. I was blown away. This deep water is the subject of our podcast today.
Welcome to Meridian Magazine’s Come Follow Me Podcast. We are Scot and Maurine Proctor and we are delighted to be with you again this week and begin a discussion around your table of Section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants. This section is so long and so deep it even took the prophet Joseph three different sessions on three different days to have it recorded. We were just in that upper room of the Newel K. Whitney Store in Kirtland, Ohio about three weeks ago where this great revelation was received. I think it’s fascinating, Scot, that on Christmas day in 1832, Joseph received the revelation on war that we call Section 87 and then, just two days later the Lord began giving this revelation that the Prophet designated as the “olive leaf” plucked from the Tree of Paradise, the Lord’s message of peace to us.” The juxtaposition is no accident. In section 87 we are warned that war will be poured out upon all nations. In section 88 we are sent “another Comforter,” (v. 3) and “This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom.” (v. 4)
That is quite the contrast and quite the blessing extended to all the faithful. Now, Maurine, I’ve been noticing a pattern in the reception of these marvelous revelations—not just section 88, but in most of them in the Doctrine and Covenants. First of all, someone has a question for the Lord. That person may be the Prophet Joseph himself. It may be Oliver Cowdery or Sidney Rigdon or any number of other people. But a question is posed to the Lord and an answer is sought from Him. And here’s another part of the pattern: The Lord answers! I think sometimes we come to the Lord in our personal prayers and we ask for certain blessings, oftentimes the very same ones every day, and then we hope he will answer us. There is something to asking a specific question.
Oh, I agree. Here’s an example from a common prayer of mine: “We ask thee to bless our children with health and strength and with strong testimonies of the gospel.” That’s a good prayer, but perhaps a better prayer would be this: “Is there something we can do in our family to increase and strengthen the testimonies of our grandchildren of the atonement of Jesus Christ?” And perhaps a best prayer might be, “Dear Father, willst thou show us thy will concerning the best way we can teach our family and testify to them of the atonement of Jesus Christ? Wilt thou open up opportunities for us to testify to them?” Now, this is a small example but it truly does help to have very specific questions.
The next pattern I have noticed in this early time of Church history is that oftentimes, such as just before Section 88 is received, a number of priesthood holders gather together, and in this case, “the revelation was given after high priests at a conference prayed ‘separately and vocally to the Lord to reveal his will unto us concerning the upbuilding of Zion.’” (Section 88 headnotes) Remember when Section 76, the great vision of the three degrees of glory, was received there were a dozen others in the room, all exercising their faith and participating in the peace and influence of the vision. I wonder if we underutilize the reception of personal or family revelation in our homes. I wonder if we implemented this kind of approach where a number of our family members gather and we pray separately and vocally for the joint desires of our hearts—our family’s very specific needs or questions—and we importune our Heavenly Father with the faith of many, do you think this might increase our faith and our resolve to receive answers if we join more often together?
Oh, I think that pattern is sure. And I do think with this year’s studies in the Doctrine and Covenants, with this series of revelations received in similar manner, there is an invitation from the Lord for us as individuals and in families to increase our faith and our seeking revelation as families. “If thou shalt ask,” the Lord declares in Section 42, “thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things—that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.” (D&C 42:61) And remember what President Nelson has said: “What wisdom do you lack? What do you feel an urgent need to know or understand? Follow the example of the Prophet Joseph. Find a quiet place where you can regularly go. Humble yourself before God. Pour out your heart to your Heavenly Father. Turn to Him for answers and for comfort…. Does God really want to speak to you? Yes!” (Revelation for the Church, Revelation for Our Lives, General Conference, April 2018, Sunday Morning Session) Imagine if just you listeners of this podcast took President Nelson at his word and the Lord at His word and sought to know the things you would like to know in this pattern?
That brings me to my last observation for this week’s lesson about this pattern. As Joseph is yet in the Spirit, he either writes down what he has been given or he dictates what he is receiving to a scribe. So, there is a record kept of the things given from the heavens. How many times do we receive inspiration and guidance, or answers to our specific prayers, big or small, and we don’t write down the things we receive? President Nelson keeps a notebook by his bedside so that he is prepared to receive whatsoever the Lord is willing to give to him. And so, when revelation starts flowing, whether by a series of thoughts or directions to certain scripture references or by perfectly dictated sentences, let us be ready and willing to write those things down. And at the seeming end of the dictation, thoughts or ideas from the heavens, we are reminded and encouraged by Elder Richard G. Scott, to ask the Lord directly, “Is there more I should know?” In fact, a thorough review of Elder Scott’s talk “To Acquire Spiritual Guidance” would be a great thing for all of us. It’s in the October 2009 general conference. I have read, marked and studied that talk no less than 20 times and it still yields treasures of insight to me.
I love these glorious, transcendent, eternal insights the Lord gives to us right at the beginning of Section 88. Jesus Christ starts by teaching us about Himself in the most plain and yet far-reaching terms imaginable:
6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;
7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ…(v. 6-7)
I know we’ve talked about this before, but it bears repeating: More than 30 years ago, Scot, you and I had landed in Tel Aviv and we were looking to take a Sherut—a shared taxi—into Jerusalem from Ben Gurion Airport. As we stood there curbside at the airport ground transportation area, we noticed that our friends, Truman and Ann Madsen were also looking for a Sherut and so we went in together and rode the 36 miles with them into Jerusalem. On the way there we were talking about various parts of Jesus Christ’s ministry. We asked Truman, “Do you think that Christ’s baptism being at that lowest point on earth, there in the Jordan River about 1,300 feet below sea level, was part of His descending below all things?” Truman didn’t even hesitate: “Absolutely,” he said, “and even there at the north end of the sea that is called Dead is also significant—that the living water He offered would bring life to all things.”
This was part of Jesus’s mission here in mortality, to descend below all things and thereby to comprehend all things that He might have a full understanding of all that we would experience here on this earth. No matter what we face; no matter what challenges loom before us; no matter how difficult the trial or the path, He has gone below it, above it, through it, comprehended it and has a complete understanding of all things mortal.
And I love to follow the things the Lord teaches us next about the light of Christ:
This is the light of Christ.
As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.
8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;
9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;
10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
That’s exciting. That same light which powers the sun, the moon and the stars—is the same light that quickeneth our understandings. This is truth. This is knowledge. This is what God extends to all of us.
And He continues:
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.
Aaron D. Franklin, in a new book called The Spiritual Physics of Light notes “Light affects our lives in far more ways than just enabling sight. The light you can see…is only a tiny fraction of the broad spectrum of light that exists. Light spans from radio waves to gamma rays (and that’s just the light we can identify scientifically). It has been scientifically proven that everything emits light at all times.” This includes every person. The “levels of spiritual light can also have a notable, detectable impact on those around us.” Light really does fill the immensity of space
Franklin notes, “Light has become the ubiquitous medium for transmitting information. This includes everything from internet data carried thousands of miles in fiber optic cables, to cell phone conversations transported from a tiny phone to a nearby tower and ultimately to the desired recipient…Light has become the dominant medium for transmitting our countless forms of communication and data…
“If as mortals we have managed to figure out how to use light to communicate from long distances, what sort of capabilities does God have with light”, especially since it emanates from His presence?
Light travels, as far as we understand it, at a speed of approximately 186,000 miles per second, and distances are measured by this speed. Light can go around the earth’s equator in 0.134 seconds, from the moon to the earth which is 238,900 miles in 1.28 seconds. It can travel from the sun to the earth in 8.3 minutes, from the earth to the nearest galaxy in 25,000 years and across the Milky Way in 100,000 years.
I recently read that “One of the most sacred laws of physics is that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light in a vacuum. But this speed limit has been smashed in a recent experiment in which a laser pulse travels at more than 300 times the speed of light.” (Physics World, Laser Smashes Light-Speed Record, 19 July 2000)
This excites the mind, doesn’t it?
And, of course, scientists know that tachyons, a hypothetical particle, always travel faster than light—but many physicists believe that faster-than-light particles cannot exist because they are not consistent with the known laws of physics.
And I think the key here is “known laws”—I remember reading about when a journalist from the east came to Utah and was being critical of Brigham Young by saying he bet that Mr. Young did not even know how many elements there are. Brigham Young replied: “You wrongly assume that you know.” At that time there were only 70 known elements on the periodic table. When I went to college there were 105 known elements. Now there are 118 known elements.
Richard P. Feynman, a Nobel Laureate, wrote “What I am going to tell you about [light] is what we teach our physics students in the third or fourth year of graduate school..It is my task to convince you not to turn away because you don’t understand it. My physics students don’t understand it…That is because I don’t understand it. Nobody does.”
Obviously, God the Father and Jesus Christ work within the structure of the laws of the universe, immutable, unchangeable, steady laws based on eternal truths. Section 88 teaches, as we have read together, that:
The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.
What strikes me there is “the law by which all things are governed.” Light plays this key role in our existence and in our ability to make it back into His presence someday.
And verse 67 of Section 88 then teaches us a most wonderful key:
And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.
Isn’t that our goal? To be filled with light? How would it be to comprehend all things? That means that we could have all knowledge and understand every truth of the universe.
It brings us back to the promise in the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood we talked about a couple of weeks ago:
And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him. (D&C 84:38)
We need to remember in all of our studies, in all of our ponderings and meditations that Heavenly Father is a generous, giving Father whose greatest desire is for us to return to His presence and to receive all that He has. All the faithful receive ALL that He has. It’s not understood in earthly terms. If someone leaves a million dollars in her will and she wants it equally distributed to her ten children, each would receive $100,000.
Our Father in Heaven, on the other hand, promises all the faithful, that each who keeps the oath and the covenant of the priesthood and lives faithful to all their covenants, receives everything that the Father has. It’s the most generous offer of eternity.
And some of these riches He offers us are right here in the scriptures and specifically here in section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants.
Let’s look at one of these treasures, an incredible insight into the history and destiny of this planet:
Look in verses 18-20:
18 Therefore, [the earth] must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;
19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;
20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.
That’s a big WOW. The intent, from the beginning, for the very creation of this earth, was for it to become the celestial kingdom and be crowned with the presence of God the Father.
I haven’t been to any other planet, Maurine, that I can remember, but in all of our travels throughout this earth, I have to say, this is really a beautiful place and there are a lot of beautiful, amazing people on this earth and I can see, in my small, mortal estimation, why in the eternal scheme of things, this earth is destined to be a celestial world with our Heavenly Parents taking up their residence here. It’s already a wonderful, special place and what a glorious, almost incomprehensible destiny!
Now let’s turn to verse 62 together.
62 And again, verily I say unto you, my friends, I leave these sayings with you to ponder in your hearts, with this commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall call upon me while I am near—
63 Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
I’ve always loved that covenant promise: Draw near unto me and I WILL draw near unto you.
First of all, God cannot lie and if we know that this is one of His immutable, unchangeable attributes, we can trust that as we do our part in drawing near unto Him, He will indeed draw near unto us.
Our part in this, really, is quite small, but we do have to do our part. And how do we draw near unto God? The answers are simple and straightforward. First and foremost, we start by reading, pondering and studying our scriptures every day. This is just part of our daily devotions to Him who has given us life itself. His words are life and life-giving. They guide us and lift us and strengthen us and help us with specific things that we need. I can’t tell you how many times we have talked to those who are struggling in their faith or have become less-active in the Church and we ask them, “How is your scripture reading each day?” The answer is always, “I really don’t read my scriptures anymore.” And sometimes they’ll add, “I really never got much out of them anyway,” or they’ll say, “I have a hard time understanding them and so I just stopped reading them.”
Let’s suppose you are very young and inexperienced and you came from an extremely loving home, with the most caring, loving parents with a Father who had always seen to your needs and had given you priesthood blessings and had always been there for you, and the same kind of caring, tender, nurturing, wonderful Mother. Now, let’s suppose you were called on a mission to a place very far away from your Twin Falls, Idaho home. Perhaps you are called to serve in Bangalore, India. Now, let’s add into our story, a substantial amount of homesickness. Now, you’ve been in-country for three weeks (there is no Internet in our story) and you finally receive a letter, right on P-Day, from your loving Father. What are you going to do with that letter? You all know what you’re going to do, right?! You’re going to quickly open it, read it, read it again, study it, hold it next to your heart, you might even kiss that place where your Father signed it. You are so happy to get this personal missive to you. Knowing the relationship you have with your Father, would you ever not open those letters? Would you ever receive an envelope addressed to you and then just set it on the shelf or in a box and not even open it? Of course not.
And yet, that’s what some of us do when we don’t read our scriptures each day. We set HIM aside and essentially say, “I don’t need to hear from You today.” And truly, is there ever a day, EVER, in this mortal sojourn, when we don’t need to hear from our Heavenly Father? I can testify that there is not and we are among the most blessed people of all time that we have the scriptures so readily accessible to us. Each day I marvel as I may come across a verse that I’m especially interested in, for example, in the Old Testament or the New Testament. I can go through 35 or more translations of that verse to gather further insight and understanding in a matter of moments. I can read the inter-linear text in Greek or Hebrew in a matter of a few clicks of my mouse. Furthermore, as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, I can read commentaries and talks relating to that verse or doctrine, all readily accessible to me. And the deeper I look, the broader I study, the more I ponder God’s holy words, the closer I draw to Him and, because His promises are sure, He, in turn, draws nearer unto me.
And you can feel when He is near. My precious Mother, Martha Facer Proctor, who just died 20 months ago and lived to be 100 years, 6 months and 15 days old, used to always tell me, “Scot, I am very close to Heavenly Father and He is very close to me. He talks to me all the time. I can feel Him close.” She lived in her own home until four days before she died and I used to say, “Mom, are you ever afraid or lonely in your home?” “No,” she would say, “I know that Heavenly Father is close, I feel Him close every day.” She truly lived this commandment of drawing close to Him, and I can testify, He was close to her.
And, of course, Scot, we need to not only study our scriptures daily, but we need to have our morning and evening prayers, both personally and in our families, and we need to attend our meetings in Church and go to the temple as often as occasions and opportunities will allow in our current circumstances. And speaking of this, we got to attend the temple last week for the first time in 18 months and it was heavenly. We were so thrilled to be back and this is certainly a part of our drawing close to Him. And I, too, can testify, that He does draw close to us as we do all these things.
I have to say, when I was studying this section this time around, I noticed just after the headnotes, you know, in that section where the verses are in subjects and you can review what you are about to study? I saw that verses 62-73 were together with this summary: “Draw near unto the Lord, and ye will see His face.” That hit me like no other time I have read this. I’ve always focused on verses 62 and 63 that we’ve just been looking at. But, with that summary statement in mind, let’s read verses 67, 68 and 69 and think of all these verses as a run of thought:
67 And if your eye be single to my glory—[we quoted this before] your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.
Now, listen closely as you will see the power of our daily devotions to the most High God:
68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.
69 Remember the great and last promise which I have made unto you.
THAT is a glorious promise, beyond wonderful.
And it’s the same promise that we studied in Section 67, verse 10:
And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual. (D&C 67:10)
And it’s the same promise we see in Section 93, verses 1 and 2:
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;
2 And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;
And Scot, this is not a promise that is metaphorical or out-of-reach, it is real! How many people have seen the face of the Lord in this life? We know that 2,500 men, women and children saw Him when he came to visit the Nephites in Ancient America. And that very next day there could have been as many as 30,000 or more became eyewitnesses of the Risen Lord. And 500 saw Him at once in the Galilee. And we have ten appearances of the Savior in Kirtland to dozens of people. We have the whole City of Enoch who walked and talked with the Savior for three-hundred sixty-five years—and they knew Him as their friend. And then the whole city was taken up. That City of Enoch certainly numbered in the hundreds of thousands, but perhaps in the millions. We could list many more who have seen this promise fulfilled in their lives, including all the apostles in this Dispensation, which now number over 100. The Lord is actually inviting us to sanctify ourselves and to be prepared to see Him and then to see His face.
And He further says:
74 And I give unto you, who are the first laborers in this last kingdom, a commandment that you assemble yourselves together, and organize yourselves, and prepare yourselves, and sanctify yourselves; yea, purify your hearts, and cleanse your hands and your feet before me, that I may make you clean…(v. 74)
This sounds like during the times of Moses and his preparing his people to see the face of God, and they would not—in other words, they did not want to. The Prophet Joseph tried to describe the Resurrected Jesus in the Kirtland Temple:
We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah…[D&C 110:3, emphasis added]
We are talking about the Holy One of Israel, the Great Jehovah, even Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world.
And He gives us further instructions in verses 118 and 119:
118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.
119 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing; and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;
This is not just a commandment to build a temple, although this is about building the Kirtland Temple. The Lord wants us to prepare our own homes—our houses where we live—and to prepare every needful thing. Didn’t you feel like your home became more like a temple during COVID? Having the sacrament in our home week after week after week was so wonderful. The Spirit attended those wonderful home sacrament meetings and it felt like our home became a much holier place.
And aren’t our homes houses of prayer? Numerous prayers are said every day in our home. Which reminds me of my 20th class reunion of Rolla High School many, many years ago. We had gathered for a dinner together in the evening in this lovely facility in Rolla. I was standing up near the front and the hostess said, “Is there a minister in the house? Is there a minister in the house?” I whispered to her, “What do you need?” She said, “We need someone to say a prayer and to ask a blessing on the food.” I said, “I can do that.” She said, “Oh great, Scot Proctor will now offer the prayer and grace upon the food.” I had grown up in a house of prayer and praying, as it is for each of you, is what we do. I’m so grateful our homes are houses of prayer.
And how many hundreds of times have we fasted in our homes together? And not just on fast Sunday, but for special fasts for special needs? And as we have desired to seek the Lord for specific blessings, our homes have become a house of fasting. Isn’t fasting just the most wonderful blessing?
And, of course, our homes are a house of faith. We have loved teaching our children faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and in their Heavenly Father and helping them to turn to the Lord in every time of need and learning how to trust in the promptings and guidance of the Holy Ghost. How could we do without our house of faith?
And I have to make a comment about having a house of learning. Our oldest daughter, who graduated from BYU, received her master’s degree from Yale Divinity School, did a fellowship at Princeton, taught at Harvard and did her post-graduate work at Brown said to us one day, “I learned more about the gospel of Jesus Christ around our table at home that I did from four years of seminary and all my other religious education.” I treasured that statement so much, not only because she now lives in the Spirit World, but because we truly tried to make our home and our table a house of learning. And I’m so grateful it took.
And the Lord wants us to make our homes a place where the Spirit of the Lord can happily dwell. We are to teach our children to pray and walk uprightly before Him. We are to live in such a way that the Lord’s blessings can flow into our lives. We do not want to invite anything into our homes, whether it be entertainment or inappropriate movies or speech or company that would offend the Spirit in any way. By this we create a house of glory, a house of order and a house of God.
You know, Scot, this all reminds me of our time working on the Temple Mount Dig in Jerusalem where they are going through all the materials that were taken out from underneath the holy temple mount. We were there with a group one year and we were talking to one of the archaeologists. We asked him, “What is the most significant thing you’ve ever found in the temple mount dig?” He seemed to humbly ignore the question, like he didn’t want to answer it.
That’s right, so we asked him again, “Truly, can you tell us what the coolest thing is you personally have ever found in this dig.” He still would not answer the question. I couldn’t imagine why. I just figured he was being humble or shy. Our groups, over the years, have found coins, many mosaics from the first and second temple periods, they even found a crucifixion nail. I thought all these things were significant. And yet, he wouldn’t answer.
We asked him again, “What’s the most significant thing you’ve found here in this Temple Mount dig.” He reluctantly but insistently motioned for us to follow him. We did so immediately and we walked around all the screens and the buckets of material that were being examined and past some display cases of rare things that had been found and he brought us into the office and pointed to the wall. There taped to the wall was a newspaper article featuring this archaeologist and his find. He had discovered a small bullae—a clay seal—kind of like the ones you see in movies where they pour hot red wax on a letter and then the official seal or stamp is pressed upon it. Yet this bullae, with two Aramaic words on it, was different. It had the words “deka leyah” meaning “pure for God” or “Holiness to the Lord.” This seal was from the Second Temple period and was likely used to mark products and vessels that were brought to the temple and required a seal of purity.
This was no ordinary seal—anything without the seal would have been considered profane and not worthy to enter the temple.
We’ve never forgotten that moment and the teaching of this, that we, too, must have this seal in spiritual terms upon us and upon our homes—Pure for God, Holiness to the Lord—that the Spirit of the Lord can enter our homes, that the covenant blessings of the Lord can flow unto us.
That’s all for today. Thank you for being with us. We love studying with you and appreciate your listening. Next week’s lesson will cover Sections 89-92 and is entitled “A Principle with Promise.” As always, we’re so grateful to Paul Cardall for the music that accompanies this podcast and to Michaela Proctor Hutchins, our producer. Have a wonderful week and see you next time.