In a world that is steadily growing darker and more tumultuous. The Lord’s voice speaks to the tumult and says in Leviticus chapter 19 verse two, “Ye shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy.” That’s quite a commandment for his Children in a fallen world. But we know that the Lord knows how to do His work and he wants His people to be holy.


Welcome to Meridian Magazine’s Come, Follow Me podcast, we are Scot and Maurine Proctor and we are delighted to be with you again this week as we discuss Exodus, chapters 35 to 40 and Leviticus chapters 1, 16, and 19.

And we are so delighted this week to welcome another special guest. A dear friend and someone you all know, Brother Tad R. Callister.

Tad R. Callister was called into the second quorum of the seventy in 2008. Then into the Presidency of the first Quorum of the seventy in 2011, where he served until 2014. He was then called as Sunday School General President of the Church. He was released in 2019. He served in a number of other Church callings including full-time missionary in the Eastern Atlantic States Mission, Bishop, Stake President, Regional Representative, Mission President and area seventy.

He received his Bachelor of Science Degree in Accounting from Brigham Young University. A J.D. from the University of California Los Angeles, and a Master’s Degree in tax law from New York University Law School. He and his wife Catherine are the parents of six children.

Now, Brother Callister is the author of a number of books that we especially love, including The Blueprint of Christ’s Church, A Case for the Book of Mormon, America’s Choice: A Nation Under God or Without God, and Teaching with Power. And then there’s one that I think we all know particularly well and that’s called The Infinite Atonement.

Brother Callister, welcome to this podcast. We’re so honored to have you with us.

Brother Callister

And it’s an honor for me to be with the two of you, that are such scholars and have done so much good for building the kingdom. Thank you.


Now, some of these lessons in the Old Testament are harder than others, and the reading in this week’s assignment may have seemed like one of those. But we have found over the years in our studies of the Old Testament, that if you’re looking for Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice and all that you read, and the covenants which bind us to him; then our minds begin to open up more than ever before.

Brother Callister, you quote Elder Bruce R McConkie in the first part of The Infinite Atonement and I want you to comment on that quote, which is this:

Now, the atonement of Christ is the most basic and fundamental doctrine of the gospel, and it is the least understood of all our revealed truths.

Many of us have a superficial knowledge and rely upon the Lord and his goodness to see us through the trials and perils of life.

But if we are to have faith like Enoch and Elijah we must believe what they believed, know what they knew, and live as they lived.[1]

What does that mean for us in our studies of the Old Testament?

Brother Callister

Well, thank you for that question. I think the doctrine of the atonement is like a 1000-piece jigsaw puzzle, and many of those pieces are put in the Book of Mormon. But some very key pieces to that atonement come from our understanding of the atonement is taught in the Old Testament.

For example, we first learn about the fall of Adam in the Old Testament and then it makes this very significant statement in Genesis 3:22, “and the Lord God said, behold, the man has become as one of us,” meaning that because of the fall and the subsequent atonement,

we now have the opportunity to become like God and then we have in the Old Testament, of course, the great story of Abraham and Isaac. And without that we might never learn of the depth of the Father’s love and the sacrifice He made in connection with the atonement. As we parallel that with Abraham’s sacrifice.

We learn about Joseph, who was a symbol of the deliverer, who delivered the people from physical hunger, just as the Savior delivers us from spiritual hunger or famine.

We learn much about symbolism that hopefully we’ll talk about more, about the temple and those ordinances, and how they apply to the atonement. And then we learn some beautiful insights from Isaiah, who tells us, “though our sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow”, in Isaiah 1:18. It helps people know that no matter what the degree of sin, it can be cleansed.

To me, perhaps the most beautiful scripture on the atonement, is in Isaiah 61, where he says that he will give unto us beauty for ashes; that even though our life may be in ashes, completely destroyed, He can not only restore it, He can make it beautiful once again.

And I think from the Old Testament, we learn about what the word atonement means. We learn about the symbolism of the atonement, and we learn how the ordinances and

covenants relate to the atonement of Jesus Christ and help us become holy.


In fact, I think it’s interesting about the number of times that atonement is mentioned in the Old Testament versus the New Testament. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Brother Callister

Well, I haven’t counted the number of times, but it is numerous times in the Old Testament.

It’s once in the New Testament. And the actual word English word atonement means to be “at one ment”–it means to be not only at one with God, but also at one like God and I think the celestial room of the temple reminds us that we can become at one with God.

But when we go into the sealing room and are sealed to our spouses, it reminds us that there because of that ordinance we can become at one like God. And that’s why the 132nd section of the Doctrine and Covenants, verse 20 says, if we honor those covenants, then we shall be as gods. Why? Because we have all power and the angels themselves are subject unto us.


So, with this group of Children of Israel, that the Lord is taking through the wilderness to a promised land, He intends to create a holy nation. But what is holiness? What does that mean? I can comprehend it somewhat, at least when we’re talking about God, I can understand that He is holy. But it’s when I think about God making us holy, that it becomes more difficult to understand. Can you help us understand what it would mean to be a holy person or part of a holy nation?

Brother Callister

Every time we acquire an attribute of Godliness, we become holy. And it’s interesting that one of the names for God is Man of Holiness. And the whole purpose of the Plan of Salvation is not just to return to God’s presence, but our Church teaches it has another purpose. It is not only to return to His presence, but become like Him. Then Lehi tells us the reason it’s to become like Him, is so that we might have a fullness of joy; “man is that he might have joy” in 2 Nephi 2:25.

And I think in the Sermon on the Mount, the culmination really, the high point of the Sermon on the Mount is when the Savior says, “be ye therefore perfect even as your Father, which is in heaven is perfect,” meaning being holy like him. And some people, not of our faith, believe that the word “be ye therefore perfect” in that phrase really means to be complete or mature.

But even if you substitute those words, complete or mature for perfect, you have to finish the rest of the phrase that says, be therefore complete or mature, even as your Father, which is in heaven is perfect.

And if you can become perfect like him in one attribute, why not perfect like him and all attributes?

And in fact, to show how complete the Lord wants us, to become perfect, in Ephesians 4:12-13, He talks about the purpose of the church and He says, “for the perfecting of the saints”, and then He goes on to say, ‘what degree of perfection are we talking about?’

He says, “unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.” In other words, that’s the standard for perfection for holiness. And that’s why Paul says in Philippians 3:14-15, he said,

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

That’s what I’m striving for is the prize of Godhood or perfect holiness. And then he says,

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded.

Let’s all have that goal to be perfect like God, or holy like the Man of Holiness. That’s what holiness means, is to be perfect as God is perfect.


What’s interesting to me about that is, try as I may, I have noticed that life as a perfected being is not a “do it yourself” project. This is something that the Savior carries for us, because I can hardly imagine being a holy person based on my own efforts, right? It’s just impossible.

We’re talking about the Savior’s atonement working in us, and on us, and with us, and I love this incredible gift because I can’t even imagine how to do the slightest thing well and whole, let alone become holy as the Lord is holy.

Brother Callister

I think you bring up a very good point, that sometimes we focus on the Savior’s Atonement is to redeem us from sin, and redeem us from death. And we forget the other half of the Atonement, that is to perfect us. It’s not just to cleanse us, but to perfect us. And the Lord’s enabling powers of the atonement are unleashed in multiple ways.

One is through the ordinances, which of course are symbolic of the atonement, because the power of the atonement that gives them power. And also through the spiritual gifts. Every time we acquire a gift to the spirit, we acquire an attribute of Godliness. And fortunately, the atonement is not only a redeeming power, but in enabling power that does what you just said, helps us overcome our mortal shortcomings, and become more like God.


I think we see this in this week’s readings and also last week’s readings. At the end of Exodus 34, we saw that when Moses came down from the mount, I don’t think he even realized—In fact, it says he “wist” not; it means he didn’t know that he was. His face was full of light. We see that Moses had been in the Lord’s presence, and his face began to be full of this luster of light; so bright that the people couldn’t look upon him, he had to veil his face. Now, we can look at that as a once in a lifetime experience, or once in the scriptures experience, but it’s actually in a number of places.

And I was especially interested in the fact that in the early days of the church, the prophet Joseph Smith often had that same experience, where his face became bright or full of light. And we have some of those accounts, it might be worth us going through two or three of those. As we look, one of them that I’m especially impressed with, Wilford Woodruff said His face–Joseph’s face—was clear as amber; the room was filled with consuming fire. And Philo Dibble said Joseph seemed to be dressed in an element of glorious white, and his face shone as if it were transparent.

And Lorenzo Snow said at times, Joseph was filled with the Holy Ghost, speaking as with the voice of an archangel and filled with the power of God. His whole person shown and his face was lightened until it appeared as the whiteness of the driven snow.

Now, those are just fascinating to me because we see that Moses-like experience.

Brother Callister

Well, if I could just comment on that. I think we’ve highlighted Moses’ experience and Joseph Smith’s experience, but I think we see many people in our own lives that just radiate light and goodness. We don’t have to come down from Mount Sinai to radiate light and goodness. I think we see so many people within the Church and without the Church who do good deeds, who have pure thoughts and they just radiate a light and a countenance.

And sometimes you just say to yourself, or I say to myself, “wow, that person just radiates goodness. That person radiates light.” And I think every time we take a step towards holiness, there’s a light that shines from us that we can see not only with our natural eyes, but with our spiritual eyes.

And so, I think Moses and Joseph Smith reached the pinnacle, but we see many people who are taking steps along the way to get there. In fact, the two of you radiate light as I’m seeing it on the video. I know people are hearing an audio but your smiles radiate light and as you’re smiling right now–that radiates a light and goodness to me.


I have to just make one other comment or read one other account that Truman Madsen gave. I love this because it brings this closer to us. This is again from Dr. Truman G. Madsen.

“I will give you an example, recently my phone rang and President McKay said, come in.”

(This is actually talking about Hugh B. Brown.)

“So, I left my office and went into his. ‘President Brown,’ he said, ‘I’ve been searching for a counselor’.”

(And this is after the death of President Henry D. Moyle.)

“‘I have been praying, but I have not received an answer. I’m going over to the temple. I’m going to that sacred room and I’m going to get my answer.’ My inference was that he wanted President Brown to pray for him, but he did not say that specifically.

President Brown continued, sometime later, my phone rang again. President McKay said, ‘come in’. I went to the door and it was partly ajar and I could see him sitting behind his desk.

Then President Brown said, ‘you know that when Moses descended from the mount his face shone and he wist not, which is to say, he did not know that it shown? I saw that on the face of David O McKay when I sat down.’ He said, ‘President Brown, it has been made known to me in as clear a manner as anything I’ve ever received of the Lord, that Nathan Eldon Tanner is to enter the first presidency. What do you know of him?’”

But I think that’s exciting because there was President McKay, full of light, and of course all of us who knew President McKay, I seemed to see that every time I saw him. He just seemed like a prophet’s prophet; that shock of white hair. But his face just always seemed to glow. But we see that in all the prophets, it is an amazing experience.

Brother Callister

Well, we do see all the prophets, and on one occasion President Kimball put his arms around my father and said “Reid, I love you.” And I remember my dad saying to me, “Tad, I would do anything for that man.”

And I think that’s how we feel about the Savior as we get to know him and we feel His embrace around us. We hopefully say, ‘I would do anything for the Savior’ and hopefully cheerfully so


Well, you know, even light shines from the BYU students who are studying at the BYU Jerusalem Center there because when we’re walking through the Old City, my goodness, you can spot those kids all the way down the path. They just show up with their goodness. It is really interesting that the Spirit does begin to fill you in a different way.

So, Brother Callister, the Lord’s going to take this massive camp of Israel and help them become a holy people and He uses some very specific vehicles to do that. Can you talk about those?

Brother Callister

Well, it is interesting in Exodus 35 at the very beginning, the Lord tells them that they need to keep the Sabbath Day holy. And I think that was a means; the important point was not just keeping the Sabbath Day holy. The important point was, if we keep the sabbath Day holy, It will help make us holy.

And then in these scriptures, we go on to read about the temple that the temple is a holy place, but the important part is not just that it’s a holy place, it’s a vehicle or means to help make us holy.

And then we read in these chapters that the Lord has ordinances. And the ordinances are designed to unleash power to help make us holy. And it talks about covenants throughout all of the Old Testament, particularly in these chapters as well; that is we make covenants, they help make us holy.

And sometimes I like to use the example of—suppose you were to track meet and you’re watching the high jump, and all of the sudden you realize that there’s no high jump pit. And the official says to the high jumpers, ‘just go out there and jump your highest and we’ll have a laser gun that will measure it’. If you were a high jumper, you would say, ‘what is he talking about?’

We know that that bar extracts from you every last bit of spiritual energy and strength you have. Covenants are like spiritual bars; they extract from us every last bit of spiritual energy and we have and stretch us to our limits so that we might make that pathway back to God.

All of those are vehicles that we read about in the Old Testament to help us become holy.


Well, I love that, that gives us something to hold onto. And sometimes—I would hope that we don’t do this—but I think sometimes, the Sabbath is taken lightly as that vehicle. We think that once we’ve been to our block of meetings on Sunday, then we can do whatever we want.

But I loved what Isaiah says in Isaiah 58, he says if you will not do the things that you normally do, if you would put away the things that are your other six days activities, and call the Sabbath a delight, then it really does become that vehicle for making us holy.

And I love how you said the temple, the sabbath, the covenants, they all are vehicles to make us holy.

Brother Callister

I think one of the things I can say is that the Lord gave a very simple principle for the Sabbath Day, He said to keep it holy. And to me that shows God’s trust in us, that He didn’t have to give a list of all the rules on the Sabbath Day to people who had the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately, people who couldn’t live that principle to keep it holy, he had to start giving rules. And so, we see the mosaic law develop into 613 rules and commandments, many of which applied to the Sabbath Day. But when we get to the New Testament and the law of Moses is superseded by the law of Christ, we see one principle; keep the Sabbath Day holy.

I used to have missionaries in the mission field that would say to me, well, “can I do this on preparation day or can I do this?”

And I would say, “what’s the purpose of preparation day?”

Well, they say, “it’s to prepare you physically and spiritually and intellectually for the rest of the week.”

I said, “well if this activity does that, go ahead.” And I said, “we don’t have to have a list of all the things you can do and can’t do on preparation day. The goal or principle is; do those things that will prepare you to teach the gospel effectively, the rest of the week.” And hopefully as parents, we can teach our children the principle; “does this show, if you want to watch it on tv, keep us holy? Does it make us more like the Savior?” And if it does, do it.

And if it doesn’t, then you need to back up to the law of Moses and have a few rules until they’re mature enough to live the principle.


Let’s focus just for a moment on again on this camp of Israel. They are there in the wilderness and the Lord gives this commandment to Moses to build a Tabernacle, which is really this temple in the wilderness. We learn an interesting thing from Don Parry; he says,

The prophet Joseph restored the temple as a Jesus Christ-focused institution. The importance and significance of sacred space; the concept of gradational sacred space; a large receptacle of water, situated on the backs of 12 oxen; the temple as the Lord’s house; moral qualities for temple entrance; gestures of approach and much more.

President Russell M. Nelson taught Adam and Eve, Noah and his wife, Abraham and Sarah, Lehi and Sariah, and all other devoted disciples of Jesus Christ, since the world was created, have made the same covenants with God. They have received the same ordinances that we, as members of the Lord’s restored Church today have made; those covenants that we receive at baptism and in the temple.

So, here the Lord has perhaps 1 to 2 million people who are there in the wilderness and He places in their midst this Tabernacle. Let’s talk about that for just a moment and how that brings us and brings them to holiness.

Brother Callister

Well, of course, the Tabernacle was a form of temple; prototype of our temples today. It had gradations of holiness and had the outer court where the sacrifices took place, which were symbolic of the atonement of the Savior. It had the labor that was to wash us and make us clean or holy. The vestments as you would go see, the drapes, the carpets were–their colors were interesting–were blue and purple and scarlet. They’re mentioned 14 times in these chapters. Those colors symbolic of the blue or heavenly approval; the purple or the royalty of Jesus Christ as our king, and the scarlet, of course, symbolic of the blood that He would shed.

Then we go into the Tabernacle and there’s the holy place. And then you go to the most holy of all places, symbolic of the gradations of leaving the world, coming closer to God, and ultimately entering into His presence and becoming like Him.

So, the temple has these gradations of holiness. It has these ordinances that are designed to help us remember the Savior and become like Him. Covenants that lift us up to become like Him and symbolism to remind us that the atonement of Jesus Christ is what makes this all possible, to become like our Father in Heaven and our Savior, Jesus Christ.


So, you’re suggesting that everything about, of course, about temples, but also about that Tabernacle in the wilderness was about the atonement. Is that what I’m hearing?

Brother Callister

I think the whole focus of the temple and the Sabbath day, and the ordinances and the covenants, is Jesus Christ, recognizing that he’s the means and the vehicle that makes it possible for us to become like Him and truly achieve holiness, like the Man of Holiness that we honor and worship.


Let’s look at some of the parallels between the ancient and modern temple or Tabernacle, because we too have these temples in our midst. We kind of forget sometimes when the pioneers came out here to the west—and I say “out here” because we live in Utah—but when they came to the west, and they came into the valley, within a very short time, Brigham Young put his cane in the sand and he said, “here we will build a temple to our God.” And that would become the center place of the Salt Lake Valley.

Now it’s not the geographical physical center of the valley, but all the addresses–those of you who do not live in Salt Lake or do not understand the address system of Salt Lake–every address in the Salt Lake Valley ties itself to the temple. If you’re on 16th east and 94th south, that means you’re 16 blocks east of the temple, in 94 blocks south of the temple.

So, the temple really was meant to be the center of our lives. And in the time of the Children of Israel, the Tabernacle was placed in their midst and the tribes were to have their tents around the Tabernacle, and to face the Tabernacle. Just as we see in King Benjamin’s speech in Mosiah chapters two through five, we see that they all placed their tents around the temple with their entrances facing to the temple. And that’s also a type that we should keep our lives facing towards the temple. But let’s look at some of these parallels between the Tabernacle in ancient times and the temple in our time.

Well, even in early times, there were moral qualities for entrance to the temple. We had to be recommended to go into the Tabernacle or into the temple. You had to be clean to be able to enter the temple.

Brother Callister

It was also interesting that you said that the Tabernacle was in the midst of the people just as the temple today is in the midst of the people, but also it’s interesting in the garden of Eden, what it says about the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was “in the midst” of the garden. So, the Lord has these focal points that are important for the people to look upon and hopefully it will cause them to want to make changes in their life to become more like God.


Well, another thing that’s very much in common with this ancient Tabernacle and our temples is the idea of Holiness to the Lord, which was written in Hebrew on the High Priest’s crown and we know it’s written on the exterior of every temple that we build, “Holiness to the Lord, the House of the Lord.”

And so, it reminds us again that it is only the pure; those who have been cleansed, who can enter. And the Lord is about making us pure by entering and participating in this experience.

I also think it’s really interesting that the Holy of Holies was also in the temple of Solomon, and the priest could only go in there one time a year on the day of Atonement, Yom Kippur. And if he should die in there, they always had a rope around his ankle to pull him back out because nobody could enter that sacred space, without fearing for their life, because it was so sacred.

I mean, there was every sense that this was a growing and growing sacred place as you got further and further in.


I was especially struck by this Holiness to the Lord. Of course, we see it as you mentioned, Maurine, written on the temples, and the House of the Lord. But when we were at the dedication of the San Antonio temple, I remember specifically because there was an angle I could get with my camera, where I could see it written three times and I could capture that in the picture; Holiness to the Lord, Holiness to the Lord, Holiness to the Lord. I thought, what a great reminder as we’re going into the temple, that that is the focus of our minds and hearts.

Brother Callister

I think it’s also an interesting parallel that when the Tabernacle was finished, it tells us that the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle. And we remember that happening very dramatically in the Kirtland temple, as the Lord’s signifying that this house was now acceptable to Him and a holy place as He designed it to be.


I do want to quote that, Brother Callister, specifically. It’s so very pointed in Exodus 40:34:

Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle.

And that really is like that Kirtland experience you just referred to.


I also love that in the Old Testament, the Hebrew word kpr “k p r”, which really in our language means, “covering”, appears about 80 times associated with the Tabernacle and the temple. And that again, is a direct response to the atonement as a covering of our sins; a covering of our fragility, a covering of our vulnerability, and our sins. And it’s like the Lord embraces us and takes us into His arms.

That beautiful image we see all the time in the Book of Mormon. So, there it is right in these verses, reminding us again that this is all about the atonement.

Brother Callister

And I think as you talk about the necessity of reminding us about the atonement, President Kimball said perhaps the most important word in the scriptures is remember; to remember the Savior.

And it’s interesting, of course, to the ordinance of sacrifice, it focuses on the atonement. The ordinance of baptism focuses on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; the atonement. The sacrament focuses on the bread for his flesh and the water for his blood. And of course the temple; the ordinances, the tokens, the covenants, the rooms, and the ultimate ability to enter into the presence of God in the celestial kingdom and feel His glory, are all designed to focus on the atonement of Jesus Christ.

And that’s perhaps why in Leviticus 19, 16 times, in that one chapter, it says, in essence, I am the Lord thy God. In other words, the priority in your life is God. It’s not our hobbies, it’s not our interests, it’s not our sports, it’s not our locations, that above everything else in life, our priority is God. And if He is our priority, and if He is our focus, and we remember Him, then I think naturally we become like Him. And He’s given us all these vehicles to help us in that process.


And what a kindness to remind us in so many ways about Him, because we are very critical of the Children of Israel, we say, “oh my goodness, how could they forget they’ve seen so many miracles I’ve seen now the presence of God in this Tabernacle in the wilderness. Why do they complain and moan and are such a burden to Moses and to the Lord?” Because they just cannot fully engage themselves in this task to become holy. And yet, we’re so much the same.

There’s so much else that grabs our attention in this life, and it really is a kindness of the Lord to have Him help us put Him first because we need it. There’s something about mortality that distracts us and ‘prone to wander, Lord, I feel it.’ And I love that He helps us by reminding us.

Brother Callister

I think it’s helpful to us to know that there are people, mortals, not just the Savior, but mortals who became holy. The whole city of Enoch became holy. The people of Melchizedek became holy. The people at the time that the Savior came to the Nephites became a holy people. It tells us “not one was lost”. That phrase resonates with me with my own family. We want not one to be lost.

And then the Book of Mormon tells us that there were many holy men, and I’m sure women, who came among them. So, we have examples of mortals who have become holy that can give us hope that we too can become holy. It’s not just reserved for the Savior and our Father in Heaven.


It gives me hope that in the 93rd section, it talked about “the Lord did not receive a fullness at the first, but it was line upon line and precept upon precept that he received that fullness.” And so it is for us.

It really does give me hope, a perfect brightness of hope that I can, over time, by and by, teaching upon teaching, lesson upon lesson, temple attendance upon temple attendance, scripture reading upon scripture reading, service upon service, little by little, over time, I can receive a fullness, And I’m certainly not even close, but I do have hope that, someday, through his atoning sacrifice, I can become like him. And that really is a powerful teaching in the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So, we’ve talked about all these wonderful things in this week’s reading. We’ve seen how the Lord places this Tabernacle in the midst of His people in this wilderness place. We’ve talked about the importance of keeping the Sabbath Day holy, and how that will be an instrument to help make us holy. We’ve talked about covenants. I guess in conclusion, Brother Callister, we’d love to know how you feel about the atonement and what the Atonement really means to you personally.

Brother Callister

Well, thank you for that. And it caused me to reflect upon the last week of the Savior’s life and He knew what a tough life it would be, a week. You knew that Judas would betray him. He knew that Peter would deny knowing him on three occasions. He knew that He would be rejected, would be spit upon. He would be reviled. He would have the moments in the Garden of Gethsemane, He would have the cross, He knew all of that.

And yet he could say in John 16:33, “in the world he shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” And to me that means that once the atonement was performed, he put us in the driver’s seat is to our exaltation. Once the atonement was performed, there’s no external event–there’s no divorce, there’s no loss of life, there’s no loss of job, there’s no depression, there’s no illness, that can prevent you from returning to God and becoming like Him, because of the atonement of Jesus Christ. And I’m so grateful to Him that He loved us enough that He made that possible.

But I hope also, I don’t forget our Father in Heaven and all of this. And you think, as Abraham raised the knife to plunge it, who is making the greater sacrifice, Isaac? Or Abraham? What father would not take the place of his son if he could?

But our Father in Heaven couldn’t take the place of his Son and that’s why He said, “for God so loved the world, He gave his only begotten Son” and I’m grateful for that love of a Father and a Son that made exaltation possible for each of us.


Thank you so much for that beautiful testimony, Brother Callister, and for joining us today and enlightening us so much. We’ve loved our time together and we know our listeners have been greatly blessed by your comments, insights, and testimony.

Next week we’ll be studying Numbers chapters 11 through 14 and 23 through 24, in a lesson entitled, “Rebel Not Ye Against the Lord, Neither Fear”. As always, thanks to Paul Cardall for the music that accompanies this podcast and thanks to our producer, Michaela Proctor Hutchins.

Have a wonderful week and see you next time.